Got an issue with someone or something? Want to whine a little? Here's the place to do it, or to get to know folks, or ask those questions that don't fit anywhere else.
Theo50 wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 2:23 pm
I appreciate all of the good discussion in this thread and that it hasn't turned into a toxic conversation. I realize that smoking is an "outside" issue, but that is why I posted it in the "If It Doesn't Fit Anywhere Else" forum. I would imagine that most all topics in this forum are "outside" issues.
My main question revolves around the lack of disapproval to this "outside" issue, addictive drug, as opposed to the, in general, unanimous disapproval to other "outside" issue addictive drugs.
Thanks for clarifying. I see your point. And I am glad it hasn't turned into a toxic discussion.
I guess maybe because lots of folks don't consider smoking a drug - like alcohol is a drug. Cigarettes and alcohol are "socially acceptable" and sold at corner markets everywhere. Of course when AA began they were smoking like crazy in church basements! (Now the treatment people come to get a caffeine buzz!)
I am one of those who gets a little grizzly about people who identify as "addicts" then say alcohol is their drug of choice. Why not go with the more specific term "alcoholic"? What do we call a smoker? I suppose I say "I am addicted to nicotine" as opposed to "alcoholic/addict".
Hummm - why am I reticent about saying I am an addict?
Cling to the thought that, in God's hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have - the key to life and happiness for others. With it you can avert death and misery for them. page 124 BB
I feel like the issue is not our business.
I gave up smoking at the same time as drinking. Others did not, others stopped smoking later, some continue to smoke... not my business. It’s not so much a “lack of disapproval” as a “couldn’t care less”
Please read The Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous for an answer to your question. The answer should be plain and clear. When I first started AA, you couldn't find a non-smoking meeting. In my area these days, you can't smoke in any meetings. What people do outside of meetings is on them.
Theo50 wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 2:23 pm
My main question revolves around the lack of disapproval to this "outside" issue, addictive drug, as opposed to the, in general, unanimous disapproval to other "outside" issue addictive drugs.
the difference between cigarrettes and other outside drugs is quite simple:
how many people beg,cheat,steal for get their next cigarrette? how many people have killed others while on nicotene? how many people are in prison for smuggling cigarrettes across the border?
nicotine has never caused me to do the things alcohol,coke,crack, pills did.
if everyone that smoked stopped smoking, be prepared for a tax increase somewhere else.
12.4 billion yearly
I don't even smoke and have many times times been on the receiving end of someone begging for a cigarette. I am not sure where you live but in the city were I live, convenient stores, AA meetings, street corners, restaurants, bars, etc are abundant with people looking to "bum" a cigarette.
Illegal sale of cigarettes is also common as the state in which I live in has a high sin tax. Transporting (smuggling) cigarettes across state borders is a crime as far as I am aware of. I have also witnessed many who lie and sneak their cigarette smoking from their family.
I will agree with the fact that the states rely heavily on the sin taxes, so there is no incentive for states to curb the sale of nicotine products due to this planned revenue. I don't agree that a good reason to continue smoking is to avoid state tax hikes. I would think that the medical costs would decrease significantly if smoking was eliminated.
Molgzonor wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 4:33 am
I've apparently got a lifetime of step 10 to deal with all the stuff I grab ahold to fill 'normal', and the trouble it all causes. Remember, when I come in attend a few meetings and begin to work the steps, I am already sober. Makes me think maybe theres more to my alcoholism than just alcohol. Guess if I was honest I never broke up a home or went to jail over cigarettes but I could probably find some inconsideration, dishonesty, fear and maybe- just maybe, a tiny bit of bitterness and resentment associated with the habit. I'll butt out before I ruin someone's day that was perfectly frikking OK before they come read this crap.
I will try to keep my crap off of the discussion forums and just stick with the "this is an outside issue" for anything not directly related to AA.
For reference:
Forum Name: "If It Doesn't Fit Anywhere Else"
Forum Description: Got an issue with someone or something? Want to whine a little? Here's the place to do it, or to get to know folks, or ask those questions that don't fit anywhere else.
Db1105 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 7:20 pm
Please read The Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous for an answer to your question. The answer should be plain and clear. When I first started AA, you couldn't find a non-smoking meeting. In my area these days, you can't smoke in any meetings. What people do outside of meetings is on them.
I don't recall anything in the 12 and 12 regarding this topic, but will give it another read as I am curious of what you are referring to.
Theo50 wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:48 pm
I will try to keep my crap off of the discussion forums ...
I believe he was referring to the notion that he may be talking crap, not you, certainly hope so. At any rate, as you say, this particular section of the forums is intended for topics like this.
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."
PaigeB wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 10:47 am
It really is an outside issue...
You would think so.
I am not a smoker and never was. I can't speak to why my fellow alcoholics cling to an insane habit. I do know that Bill W. died of emphysema and was chastised for his smoking and womanizing by the Oxford Group. I can also say that smoking is not sufficiently mood altering to make our lives unmanageable by altering our behavior. I can also say that engaging in a dirty habit that causes certain physical injury and death is not a sane act, therefore AA Step 2 suggests we address it.
It is easy for me to say that smoking should be banned from 12-step meetings.
I understand Nicotine Anonymous was primarily started by AA members.
Theo50 wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:48 pm
I will try to keep my crap off of the discussion forums ...
I believe he was referring to the notion that he may be talking crap, not you, certainly hope so. At any rate, as you say, this particular section of the forums is intended for topics like this.
Thats also how I read it, and thought he was referring to himself, not the OP
I hadn't read over the thread before I replied. But it does appear that there is a whole lot of frustration, a whole lot of reined in hostility, and a whole lot of misunderstood/misapplied AA principles. I suggest locking this topic before it gets out of hand.
Tradition One "Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity."
Page 130 in the Twelve and Twelve
Neither he nor anybody else can survive unless he carries the A.A. message. The moment this Twelfth Step work forms a group, another discovery is made - that most individuals cannot recover unless there is a group. Realization dawns that he is but a small part of a great whole; that no personal sacrifice is too great for preservation of the Fellowship. He learns that the clamor of desires and ambitions within him must be silenced whenever these could damage the group. It becomes plain that the group must survive or the individual will not.
Tradition Three "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking."
Page 142 in the Twelve and Twelve
Overjoyed, the newcomer plunged into Twelfth Step work. Tirelessly he laid A.A.'s message before scores of people. Since this was a very early group, those scores have since multiplied themselves into thousands. Never did he trouble anyone with his other difficulty. A.A. had taken its first step in the formation of Tradition Three.
Tradition Five "Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers."
Page 150 in the Twelve and Twelve
"Shoemaker, stick to thy last!"... better do one thing supremely well than many badly. That is the central theme of this Tradition. Around it our Society gathers in unity. The very life of our Fellowship requires the preservation of this principle.
Now there are certain things that AA cannot do for anybody, regardless of what our several desires or sympathies may be.
Our first duty, as a society, is to insure our own survival. Therefore we have to avoid distractions and multi-purpose activity. An AA group, as such, cannot take on all the personal problems of its members, let alone the problems of the whole world.
Sobriety--freedom from alcohol--through the teaching and practice of the Twelve Steps, is the sole purpose of an AA group. Groups have repeatedly tried other activities and they have always failed. It has also been learned that there is no possible way to make nonalcoholics into AA members. We have to confine our membership to alcoholics and we have to confine our AA groups to a single purpose. If we don't stick to these principles, we shall almost surely collapse. And if we collapse, we cannot help anyone.
Bill W.
(Primary Purpose - to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.)
(Sole Purpose sobriety - freedom from alcohol - through the teaching and practice of AA's Twelve Steps, is the sole purpose of the group)
A.A.’s Single Purpose
Tradition Five: Each group has but one primary
purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who
still suffers.
"There are those who predict that A.A. may well
become a new spearhead for a spiritual awakening
throughout the world. When our friends say these
things, they are both generous and sincere.
But we of A.A. must reflect that such a tribute and such a
prophecy could well prove to be a heady drink for most
of us—that is, if we really came to believe this to be the
real purpose of A.A., and if we commenced to behave
accordingly.
Our Society, therefore, will prudently cleave to
its single purpose: the carrying of the message to
the alcoholic who still suffers. Let us resist the proud
assumption that since God has enabled us to do well
in one area we are destined to be a channel of saving
grace for everybody."
A.A. co-founder Bill W., 1955
Our Sole Purpose
Who's Responsibilty?
"An AA group, as such, cannot take on all the personal problems of its members, let alone those of non-alcoholics in the world around us. The AA group is not, for example, a mediator of domestic relations, nor does it furnish personal financial aid to anyone.
"Though a member may sometimes be helped in such matters by his friends in AA, the primary responsibility for the solutions of all his problems of living and growing rests squarely upon the individual himself. Should an AA group attempt this sort of help, its effectiveness and energies would be hopelessly dissipated.
"This is why sobriety - freedom from alcohol - through the teaching and practice of AA's Twelve Steps, is the sole purpose of the group. If we don't stick to this cardinal principle, we shall almost certainly collapse. And if we collapse we cannot help anyone."
Bill Wilson (As Bill Sees It, p79)
Our Primary Purpose
"Our 12th Step, carrying the message, is the basic service that the AA fellowship gives. This is our principal aim and the main reason for our existence. Therefore, AA is more than a set of principles. It is a society for alcoholics in action. We must carry the message, else we ourselves can whither and those who have not been given the truth may die" - Bill W. from "What is the Third Legacy" AA Grapevine July 1955
So you don't think somebody in AA should have encouraged Bill W. who died of emphysema (smoking) to stop his insane smoking, where insanity is discussed in Step Two?
How about those alcoholics who only smoke when they drink making it an alcohol related experience. Should they keep their smoking to themselves?
