Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby avaneesh912 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:44 am

See how Bill arrived at a decision looking at Ebby.

But my friend sat before me, and he made the pointblank declaration that God (something, if you have trouble with that word, you can sub) had done for him what he could not do for himself. His human will had failed. Doctors had pronounced him incurable. Society was about to lock him up. Like myself, he had admitted complete defeat. Then he had, in effect, been raised from the dead, suddenly taken from the scrap heap to a level of life better than the best he had ever known!

Had this power originated in him? Obviously it had not. There had been no more power in him than there was in me at that minute; and this was none at all.


****---------*****
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby Tosh » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:31 am

There's nothing in there that says we have to believe in God.

Step 3
"Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God"

And many religious types (I can name some) have said they've doubted God's existence. Isn't this what faith is all about? With others, when you hear about their concept of God, it's nothing like the 'Magic Man in the Sky' concept.

As I say, I'm an atheist, or a non-theist; I'm not sure which - I don't care to be honest.

But I'm happy - if it's useful - to 'act as if' there were a God, loving and kind, or even 'judgemental and vengeful', with me, watching over me, keeping an eye on me.

I just said the Step 3 prayer, with my sponsor, and got on with my Step 4.

My own personal opinion is that if there is a God, He doesn't give a hoot whether you believe in Him or not. All He's arsed about is that you get happy by doing the Steps (or something similar; A.A. doesn't own God).

Even in Christianity, the emphasis is on actions, not beliefs, in fact some say it's the actions we take that prove our beliefs. Faith without works is dead.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby avaneesh912 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:28 am

There is a reality show "Bar Rescue" where a guy helps rebuild a broken bar. Money (like the Power the book talks about) doesn't flow back until they start fixing what was broken. They fire the waiters/waitress with bad attitude, discard the bad coolers, change the menu add new entres (bring in new attitude like in our case), re-design the floor, add a section for dance. When they re-open the bar, people pour into it. More money (power).

When Big book says inventory is fact finding and fact facing proposition (like what the businesses does), it clicked with me. I can't be sitting on this side whining about life situations, I have to be in action, clean the debris of the past and drop the negativity and look for ways to change.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby BPG » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:43 pm

I was reminded of my own struggles by your post. I used to love to think about the problem of evil in the world according to the old formula;

If God is great he is not good; if God is good, he is not great.

In other words, either God is an almighty SOB who doesn't give a rat's rump for the human race, or God is an impotent weenie who'd like to help but, gee, sorry, maybe next time. Since neither proposition offered up anything resembling an auspicious situation for faith & belief, I was content to dismiss the whole God question out of hand and settle into a comfortable agnosticism.

Sometime after getting my ass kicked by booze, it occurred to me the very act of framing the question thus was in fact an assertion of my human power --- the power to reason --- over any and all other possibilities. Put another way, I thought, which proposition was more likely;

Prop 1 - That there is no God, and therefore no point to existence, no point in exerting oneself to make the world a better place, no point in loving and caring for others, or doing really anything at all except whatever gives pleasure in the moment.

Prop 2 - That my human power to reason is inadequate to the task of understanding 'the meaning of life', and that my only guideposts therefore have to be those hints in the universal experience that suggest my life means more than simply the satisfaction of appetites.

Looking back, I think I was finally able to see the essential truth of Proposition 2 only when I was blessed to acquire some degree of humility. It was then that I was finally able to douse the persistent flames of my intellectual arrogance and see, for the first time, that the love for my wife and kids, the satisfactions of giving, and the beauty in all things were more than anything else reflections of the utter meaningfulness of life. And that meaningfulness, that higher power and purpose, has been enough to sustain me ever since through a long and happy sobriety.

Humility finally gave me permission to give my mind a rest. And it was in that rest that the poetry came in.

Good luck to you
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby Service » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:33 am

Is their such a thing ? MY TRUTH? What happen to Gods truth our truth not yours? Is the Demigods playing God with Psychobabble ? What is A.A saying not people (re: Conscious of the big book that came from no ONE but a loving God from seekers)- SIMPLE and underlined in step TWO, why underlined in STEP 2? for the sick to take a closer look what A.A is saying - GOD AS WE UNDERSTOOD HIM not how God understands ME so I can administer it to someone else as demigods do -this is why it's important to hang with the fellowship as a whole and not get bitten and become a zombie - in other words BE TRUE TO THY SELF - It's truly an inside job people wanting to bestow on others
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby PaigeB » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:23 pm

Hi Service! Good to "see" you! Hope all is well!

Here is what I wrote in the Daily Reflections today:
When Faith is Missing
4th February Daily Reflection

Sometimes A.A. comes harder to those who have lost or rejected faith than to those who never had any faith at all, for they think they have tried faith and found it wanting. They have tried the way of faith and the way of no faith.

— TWELVE STEPS AND TWELVE TRADITIONS, p. 28


Being an atheist I was not "angry at god" or even disappointed.

But that is a good thing! Lucky for me, you in AA were able to begin writing on my Blank Slate starting the very second I walked through the doors of AA... no earlier ~ it began with a few phone calls to a woman I had never met. Soon, I started by making certain, to the point of annoying you all, that it did not matter what I thought. You all took away my last excuse: "I cannot recover without a god." More to the point, I thought, "I cannot recover without accepting YOUR god."

It took a while to reassure me and even then I tested the idea throughout the years while I was checking the writing on my blank slate and deciding what I could live with. My Humanist values required that I be as altruistic as possible without getting to the point of Controlling... Ohhhh - what? I can't control ____? HAahahaa... Still learning THAT in mini-bites. I am glad that my Humanist values ALSO remind me that humans are far from perfect and that worked right in with you reminding me that I too am human & VERY fallible. But I can learn from my mistakes. You have shown me a program for living that works in rough going and I have a Fellowship of friends around the world to help me through. And I have a personal Higher Power I can work with.

I do the best I can and leave the rest up to the Universe Divine. That is Faith. And I have no baggage! YET! :shock: :lol:
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
The e-AA Group's 7th Tradition link: www.e-aa.org/group_seventh.php
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby Roberth » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:26 pm

Hello highcost. First off let me be perfectly clear I have 26 years in AA and I am still an atheist. I don’t publicize that but I don’t lie about it either. I do use the word god. My understanding is a Group of drunks AKA an informed group conscience so to speak. I pretty much know what the next right thing that I need to do but if it doesn’t feel right I will talk it over with some close friend in the program. I could use a different word other than god but when I say god it allows others to bring to their mind their understanding without having to given a long explanation of what I don’t believe in the big chief in the sky. I could use higher power but I lazy that is 4 syllables and god is only one syllable.
I am fond of say I wouldn’t spirituality if it bit me in the a$$. But working with a lot of people over time I have found that you don’t have to be spiritual to do the right thing…….doing the right thing is spiritual act or at least for me it is.
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby Blue Moon » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:11 am

highcostofliving wrote:God, then, is an asshole.

Yes. You'll soon go one step further: you would never have created cancer, or dementia, or any number of other ills.

So that makes you better than God. QED

For me, this is where "of our understanding" kicks in. What if those who proclaim that God created cancer etc. are wrong? Maybe he ... it .... didn't.

Also, note that many ills are caused by us. Many of us would never get dementia if we weren't so busy succeeding at cheating death. You may think death itself is wrong .... but I feel the "Matrix" movies were onto something when mankind was equated to a virus. Death is part of life's cycle. It's just the part we don't want to think about.

This is why my understanding does not gel with those who cling to the bible etc. If that brings them comfort, I'm glad for them, and will leave them in peace so long as they don't thrust their beliefs in my face.

But my understanding took a different path. Buddha talks of enlightenment. I don't need to know if God exists, I just needed to stop thinking I am better than, and follow some directions for action.

For if there is a God, and if he wants me to know him, he knows where to find me. But if there isn't, why would I be wasting what little time I have trying to find something that's not there?
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby DaveMus » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:57 am

For me, an important step towards sobriety was the realization and acceptance of many things that were more powerful, more important than me. This realization helped me break out of my typical alcoholic narcissism and grandiosity. A rigid definition of "God" that adheres only to traditional religious principles would not and does not help me.
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby 1Peter5:10 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:19 am

I stopped wondering why God allows cancer.

I have a few ideas about that, about the Tower of Babel, 'God's chosen people,' the book of Revelation, the Apocrypha etc. etc., but I FINALLY came to realize I don't need all the answers to 5,000 year old questions.

I needed only to know that He could restore me to sanity and I'll come up with the correct answers later.


I had to keep it simple.
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby avaneesh912 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:17 am

For me, an important step towards sobriety was the realization and acceptance of many things that were more powerful, more important than me. This realization helped me break out of my typical alcoholic narcissism and grandiosity. A rigid definition of "God" that adheres only to traditional religious principles would not and does not help me.


Nicely put.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby 1Peter5:10 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:41 am

I finally had to lay my ego aside.

I finally had to realize that
if God allows cancer or whatever my question was, and I can't figure it out,
then that did not prove the nonexistence of God,
it proved the limit of my ability to figure Him out.

I was not going to figure out, the answers to age-old questions, not in my (then) condition, and probably not later on.

I'm ......just......not.........that......powerful.
I'm not that smart.
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby Tosh » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:42 am

1Peter5:10 wrote:I finally had to lay my ego aside.


If I laid my ego to one side would I be to believe in Odin, or Wodin, or Zeus, or Poseidon, etc, etc, etc... I don't think I would.

And my father believed in a Christian God, but it didn't stop him from dying a typical alky's death.

Personally, I don't rate belief. Plenty of atheists and non-theists have died sober, which kinda hints at the fact that God doesn't care if we believe in Him or not.

I guess God doesn't have the kind of ego that requires us to believe in Him. :lol:

My take on the situation is that action is the key, hence we have a program of action (not a program of beliefs). Faith without works is dead, but I think works without faith is fine, though we need faith that the actions will work otherwise we'll not take them. Bill W actually wrote as such. And from a religious viewpoint, Jesus said "Follow me", not "believe in me", and Jesus was out in the trenches, healing the sick, helping the poor, and breaking bread with the sinners (even tax collectors).
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby Brock » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:28 am

Tosh wrote:My take on the situation is that action is the key, hence we have a program of action (not a program of beliefs). Faith without works is dead, but I think works without faith is fine, though we need faith that the actions will work otherwise we'll not take them. Bill W actually wrote as such. And from a religious viewpoint, Jesus said "Follow me", not "believe in me", and Jesus was out in the trenches, healing the sick, helping the poor, and breaking bread with the sinners (even tax collectors).

Those are good words. I remember a back and forth here with a good AA atheist from Liverpool ‘Desi.’ He is a strong advocate for no mention of the word God in modern day AA, when we use it here he gets upset as well. Because of the work he speaks about, and his favorite 12th step candidates being drunken street bums, I told him if there is such a thing as heaven, they would have to drag him in kicking and screaming ‘I don’t believe.’

In other parts of the bible there is also reference to ‘works,’ and how others can identify Jesus’s disciples, examples are - John 13:35 “Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples." and Matthew 7:16 “You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" It’s probable that everyone who earnestly follows the program, qualifies as a disciple of Jesus, whether they want to believe it or not.
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Re: Speaking my truth about God... read with caution

Postby Tosh » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:35 pm

Brock wrote:It’s probable that everyone who earnestly follows the program, qualifies as a disciple of Jesus, whether they want to believe it or not.


Even as an atheist/non-theist, I can get with that.

God is love!
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)
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