why does this forum delete posts about scientific literature

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Shyguy
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why does this forum delete posts about scientific literature

Post by Shyguy » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:32 pm

I posted the other day on a science journal paper discussing how moderation drinking was AT LEAST as successful as abstinence based recovery approaches.
Mods, if somebody commits suicide or dies in some other way because you prevented them fron obtaining vital information on this forum, what are you going to say to God when He asks you why you let those people die?

Link removed, see forum policy at: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19262

Summary-

The contribution of pretreatment and within treatment drinking to outcome was investigated in a group of problem drinkers attending treatment for the first time. In a previous analysis no overall significant difference in outcome was observed between 35 clients randomly assigned to the goal of abstinence (AB), and 35 assigned to a controlled drinking condition (CD). Despite the negative result, it was noted that pretreatment consumption levels were correlated with outcome levels in the AB but not in the CD condition. Scatter plots indicated that this might be because of unexpected substantial reductions in drinking by some heavy drinkers in the CD group. Formal evaluation of this hypothesis was undertaken by splitting the clients at the median (Heavier versus Lighter) of pretreatment weekly consumption (48.5 drinks), and using a logit analysis to assess whether being a Lighter or a Heavier drinker at intake affected the odds of (a) complying with the treatment requirements regarding drinking, and (b) being a moderate drinker after treatment. The results showed that the Lighter group had better chances of becoming moderate drinkers after treatment than the Heavier group. For Lighter clients no significant difference was found between the AB and CD groups. In contrast, among the Heavier clients those assigned to the CD programme were consistently more successful in accomplishing their goals within treatment. More of them were moderate drinkers (64% versus 43%) at follow-up, but this was not statistically significant. In other words, the AB programme failed in promoting abstinence among clients generally, and was not very helpful in promoting moderate drinking among the Heavier drinkers. An additional finding indicated that being abstinent or not during the first 3 weeks of treatment made little difference in the client's chance of being a moderate drinker during the 6 months following treatment. This chance, however, was significantly different depending on whether the client was a moderate drinker or not during the remaining 3 weeks of treatment. We interpret these results as strongly suggesting that controlled-drinking programmes (which include the option of aiming for abstinence) should be offered to problem drinkers like our clients.

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Tosh
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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by Tosh » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:26 am

Shyguy wrote: what are you going to say to God when He asks you why you let those people die?
I'd say, "Hey, mate, you're the omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent One. Me? I'm just a daft Geordie alcoholic.

:lol:

I'm pretty sure it's just links that aren't allowed, otherwise you can post what you like within the realms of conventional boundaries.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Brock
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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by Brock » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:24 am

Tosh is right about the links policy, the forum allows links to the various sites under the banner AA.org however. This policy was formed years ago after some trial and error, by letting a link in that seems it might assist alcoholics, creates a precedent and all sorts want their links included. Like every AA group this one operates with tradition five in mind, our primary purpose is to carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

This so called 'scientific' post, in fact goes against everything alcoholics anonymous attempts to convince those who come here. Our literature speaks in many places, of the fact that we must completely ditch the idea that we will one day control our drinking. This statement contained in the literature pretty well sums up our belief in science, “Physicians who are familiar with alcoholism agree there is no such thing as making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic. Science may one day accomplish this, but it hasn't done so yet.”
Mods, if somebody commits suicide or dies in some other way because you prevented them fron obtaining vital information on this forum, what are you going to say to God when He asks you why you let those people die?
The folks who come here have almost without exception tried every possible method to control or stop drinking, often to deaths door. For those who have not tried other methods, and are not convinced they are alcoholics, our literature actually recommends they try some controlled drinking.

So you have been treated very nicely in my opinion, in future try to educate yourself about what others are trying to do, before attempting to impose your ideas on them.
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."

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leejosepho
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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by leejosepho » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:20 am

...the AB programme failed...was not very helpful...made little difference...
We interpret these results as strongly suggesting that controlled-drinking programmes (which include the option of aiming for abstinence) should be offered to problem drinkers like our clients.
Rational logic eludes me completely there, but at least the drinker is left with the option of "aiming for abstinence" -- having a desire to stop altogether -- so s/he can eventually come to A.A. for recovery after "treatment" fails in that area also!

Whenever or wherever money changes hands, real help for the real alcoholic goes out the window.
=======================
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time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
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avaneesh912
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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by avaneesh912 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:23 am

what are you going to say to God when He asks you why you let those people die?
Present me God, I will talk to him.
Show him the mental twist which leads to the first drink of a spree. We suggest you do this as we have done it in the chapter on alcoholism.(Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)

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whipping post
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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by whipping post » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:31 am

Are you an alcoholic Shyguy? I ask because I can't fathom an alkie who has had any recovery time suggesting that moderation is an option. Alkies who still cling to the obsession to someday be able to control it might view moderation as an option. I tried every conceivable method to moderate my consumption and none worked. If moderation worked I can guarantee you I would have figured out a way to make it happen. All you are doing by suggesting this is giving those who are still hanging on to alcohol enough hope to hang on a little longer. Surely there is a moderation message board somewhere that would welcome this kind of information. I would hope we wouldn't here.

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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by avaneesh912 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:51 am

Yes there is Moderation Management. Ironically the founder later drank herself to death and that was after killing a couple.

I know there are some medication to arrest the craving, but like people said earlier the good alcoholic, because he couldn't feel the buzz, would conveniently stop taking the medication (like the nutwards in the luny bin) and drink themselves to death.
Show him the mental twist which leads to the first drink of a spree. We suggest you do this as we have done it in the chapter on alcoholism.(Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)

Lali
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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by Lali » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:03 pm

whipping post wrote:Are you an alcoholic Shyguy? I ask because I can't fathom an alkie who has had any recovery time suggesting that moderation is an option. Alkies who still cling to the obsession to someday be able to control it might view moderation as an option. I tried every conceivable method to moderate my consumption and none worked. If moderation worked I can guarantee you I would have figured out a way to make it happen. All you are doing by suggesting this is giving those who are still hanging on to alcohol enough hope to hang on a little longer. Surely there is a moderation message board somewhere that would welcome this kind of information. I would hope we wouldn't here.
Telling a member that moderation works is irresponsible. I have never seen or heard of it working for any length of time. A person who moderation works for is not likely an alcoholic, but perhaps a heavy drinker.

And, BTW, the moderators don't delete posts. (they do remove links.)
Step 1: I can't
Step 2: He can
Step 3: I think I'll let him

Shyguy
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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by Shyguy » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:11 pm

Brock wrote:Tosh is right about the links policy, the forum allows links to the various sites under the banner AA.org however. This policy was formed years ago after some trial and error, by letting a link in that seems it might assist alcoholics, creates a precedent and all sorts want their links included. Like every AA group this one operates with tradition five in mind, our primary purpose is to carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

This so called 'scientific' post, in fact goes against everything alcoholics anonymous attempts to convince those who come here. Our literature speaks in many places, of the fact that we must completely ditch the idea that we will one day control our drinking. This statement contained in the literature pretty well sums up our belief in science, “Physicians who are familiar with alcoholism agree there is no such thing as making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic. Science may one day accomplish this, but it hasn't done so yet.”
Mods, if somebody commits suicide or dies in some other way because you prevented them fron obtaining vital information on this forum, what are you going to say to God when He asks you why you let those people die?
The folks who come here have almost without exception tried every possible method to control or stop drinking, often to deaths door. For those who have not tried other methods, and are not convinced they are alcoholics, our literature actually recommends they try some controlled drinking.

So you have been treated very nicely in my opinion, in future try to educate yourself about what others are trying to do, before attempting to impose your ideas on them.
you say im the one imposing my ideas. all im doing is saying the science community does not buy in to the idea that abstinence is the only option or even the best option if your drinking is problematic..

Shyguy
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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by Shyguy » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:12 pm

whipping post wrote:Are you an alcoholic Shyguy? I ask because I can't fathom an alkie who has had any recovery time suggesting that moderation is an option. Alkies who still cling to the obsession to someday be able to control it might view moderation as an option. I tried every conceivable method to moderate my consumption and none worked. If moderation worked I can guarantee you I would have figured out a way to make it happen. All you are doing by suggesting this is giving those who are still hanging on to alcohol enough hope to hang on a little longer. Surely there is a moderation message board somewhere that would welcome this kind of information. I would hope we wouldn't here.
this person,

Shyguy
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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by Shyguy » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:13 pm

avaneesh912 wrote:Yes there is Moderation Management. Ironically the founder later drank herself to death and that was after killing a couple.

I know there are some medication to arrest the craving, but like people said earlier the good alcoholic, because he couldn't feel the buzz, would conveniently stop taking the medication (like the nutwards in the luny bin) and drink themselves to death.
...this person,

Shyguy
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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by Shyguy » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:18 pm

Lali wrote:
whipping post wrote:Are you an alcoholic Shyguy? I ask because I can't fathom an alkie who has had any recovery time suggesting that moderation is an option. Alkies who still cling to the obsession to someday be able to control it might view moderation as an option. I tried every conceivable method to moderate my consumption and none worked. If moderation worked I can guarantee you I would have figured out a way to make it happen. All you are doing by suggesting this is giving those who are still hanging on to alcohol enough hope to hang on a little longer. Surely there is a moderation message board somewhere that would welcome this kind of information. I would hope we wouldn't here.
Telling a member that moderation works is irresponsible. I have never seen or heard of it working for any length of time. A person who moderation works for is not likely an alcoholic, but perhaps a heavy drinker.

And, BTW, the moderators don't delete posts. (they do remove links.)
... and this person, are the ones imposing their ideas on others.

Mind you, the ideas they are imposing, such as in this post here, are personal anecdotes that are contradicted by the numbers seen in clinical studies. Moderation drinking works for as many people as abstinence does. thats not an idea, thats a fact i have seen repeated all over the literature.
Also, this forum doesnt delete posts, yet for some reason the post i made the other day has disappeared...

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Duke
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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by Duke » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:37 pm

This is an AA forum. If posts don't relate to the program of alcoholics anonymous and the solution offered therein, they really have no place here. You may not agree with that, but then you wouldn't expect to go to a forum about cats and insist they talk about dogs would you?

Please, carry your message as long and as loud as you wish, just show some respect and don't do it here.

Thanks.
"If you are humble nothing will touch you, neither praise nor disgrace, because you know what you are.", Mother Teresa

Shyguy
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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by Shyguy » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:50 pm

Heres the abstract to the link from my thread that got deleted.

The abstract, which was in fact a long rambling pie in the sky unscientific blog has been deleted, because it expresses a view counter to the aim of this site and AA in general.


This information could save lives, because you cannot solve a problem unless you unferstand it. If you delete this, and someone dies because they didnt get the information, have fun answering to God.

We will take our chances on that.

Shyguy
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Re: why does this forum delete posts about scientific litera

Post by Shyguy » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:56 pm

Duke wrote:This is an AA forum. If posts don't relate to the program of alcoholics anonymous and the solution offered therein, they really have no place here. You may not agree with that, but then you wouldn't expect to go to a forum about cats and insist they talk about dogs would you?

Please, carry your message as long and as loud as you wish, just show some respect and don't do it here.

Thanks.
What you meant to say is that if a post doesnt "support or advance an unbacked-by -science agenda" then you dont want to see it.
If you DONT think saving alcoholics lives is relevant to alcoholics then you have bigger problems than alcoholism my friend.

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