There is A solution

The book Alcoholics Anonymous, aka The Big Book, is the basic text for the AA program of sobriety. "Alcoholics Anonymous" Copyright 2012 AAWS, Inc. All Rights, Reserved. Short excerpts used by permission of AAWS
D'oh
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Re: There is A solution

Post by D'oh » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:33 pm

avaneesh912 wrote:
Where does the Big Book say "Find a Sponsor and DO These Step?"
Are you serious? You do like to debate like SC pointed.
As do you.

So this is about "There is a Solution" correct?

Then on page 19 where it states
We have concluded to publish an anonymous volume setting forth the problem as we see it. We shall bring to the task our combined experience and knowledge. This should suggest a useful program for anyone concerned with a drinking problem.
This is only a filler?

Our views are not all that different. I totally believe in the answer that is carried in the Big Book. But one Must read the first 164 pages in there entirety not a line or a paragraph at a time. And see for their self the answer.

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Re: There is A solution

Post by avaneesh912 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:30 am

Actually its not 164, if you add the preface ... and mainly (I know you tell your sponsees read the doctors opinion). If you add them all up it will be over 164 pages. I know we get conditioned by what we hear in meetings. Awakening is about going beyond those conditioning.

Having said that, I am fine with what you said. I think I already asked you and you already responded that you haven't found anything else apart from these 12 steps to recover. So the question is, Why do people keep coming up as though there is something else out there. But, then if you see the responses, everyone agrees that they all used the 12 steps. So, is it just because "They know the proverb (LOL)" that they want to brag about. The one member is very good at it, always throws what somebody wrote or this person said. He got the PHd. So he should be right.

I agree all spiritual teachings have a common theme acceptance and treating every being as equal, not just humans. But one thing AA offers that no other work out there, even Eckhart or Nithyananda provides or another spiritual master offers, that is the concepts about powerlessness and un-manageability. Don't ever forget that.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)

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Re: There is A solution

Post by Stepchild » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:43 am

Then on page 19 where it states

We have concluded to publish an anonymous volume setting forth the problem as we see it. We shall bring to the task our combined experience and knowledge. This should suggest a useful program for anyone concerned with a drinking problem.

This is only a filler?
Not filler....It says the same thing as this...2 pages before...

The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we have discovered a common solution. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action. This is the great news this book carries to those who suffer from alcoholism.
pg 17
But one Must read the first 164 pages in there entirety not a line or a paragraph at a time. And see for their self the answer.
I don't see many people here discouraging people from reading the entire book.

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Re: There is A solution

Post by D'oh » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:13 am

Having said that, I am fine with what you said. I think I already asked you and you already responded that you haven't found anything else apart from these 12 steps to recover. So the question is, Why do people keep coming up as though there is something else out there.
That is just it. My point exactly.

I found the 12 Steps work for me. They don't have to be Your 12 steps. Many paths.

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Brock
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Re: There is A solution

Post by Brock » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:40 am

So the question is, why do people keep coming up as though there is something else out there.
I believe it is mainly to stir the argument pot. What they attempt to show, is that there are ways to achieve a spiritual awaking other than the 12 steps, and I agree with that, because there are many very spiritual people who never had a problem with drinking. But ours is a program designed with the alcoholic in mind, so apart from the spiritual awaking we do many other things.

So when they keep putting up the many paths up the mountain saying, which is in itself a very nice Hindu Proverb, apart from spoiling it by 'beating it to death,' they need to answer a couple of other questions. Like does their path show a way to rid us of resentment the #1 alcoholic killer, or to make amends to those we have harmed, is their path laid out in the trusted one step at a time order, a way which has proved successful for millions of alcoholics ? If not then you are doing a disservice to the fellowship which saved your life, and should be ashamed.

Apart from which it is just plain rude, if you had a dealership selling Nissan cars, and I came in to your showroom and kept telling people that Mazda cars were just as good, you would ask me to leave. Because that is your showroom where you showcase Nissan, this is our showroom where we showcase AA, and the message in the first 164, open your own showroom if you wish to sell something else.
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."

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Re: There is A solution

Post by avaneesh912 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:01 am

Yeah, they forget the mental state the new-comer is in. I have run into very few people actually only one (here on e-AA) who claimed that he was able to read and comprehend what is written in this book and he didn't need any workshop or sponsor. Most come with a mushed brain. I remember reading this book and going all over, I was so lost. And then with the workshops and little help from the sponsor (bear with me, its my experience) I could comprehend what the book tried to convey. To add these other ideas its only going to cause more confusion.

Its amazing that we have to go through so much, especially this being "Big Book Study" segment of the forum. If it was else where it would have been fine.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)

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Re: There is A solution

Post by avaneesh912 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:54 am

This is from Dr. Bobs story. He is already trying to employ the spiritual approach but he couldn't stay sober:


The question which might naturally come into your mind would be: "what did the man do or say that was different from what others had done or said?" It must be remembered that I had read a great deal and talked to everyone who knew, or thought they knew, anything about the subject of alcoholism. This man was a man who had experienced many years of frightful drinking, who had had most all the drunkard's experience known to man, but who had been cured by the very means I had been trying to employ, that is to say, the spiritual approach. He gave me information about the subject of alcoholism which was undoubtedly helpful. Of far more importance was the fact that he was the first living human with whom I had ever talked, who knew what he was talking about in regard to alcoholism from actual experience. In other words, be talked my language. He knew all the answers, and certainly not because he had picked them up in his reading.


Bill, sat with Dr. Bob as he continued to drink but what changed was, Dr. Bob completed the amends (rest of the steps).

We are not talking about yours or mine here. We are talking about the 12 steps laid out in the big book.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)

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Re: There is A solution

Post by PaigeB » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:52 am

many paths up the mountain saying, ... they need to answer a couple of other questions.
...does their path show a way to rid us of resentment the #1 alcoholic killer,
... make amends to those we have harmed,
...is their path laid out in the trusted one step at a time order, a way which has proved successful for millions of alcoholics ?
Yes, yes & yes. It is the Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. Why do you insist that it is different?
Cling to the thought that, in God's hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have - the key to life and happiness for others. With it you can avert death and misery for them. page 124 BB

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Re: There is A solution

Post by PaigeB » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:55 am

PuppyEars wrote:Somewhere mixed in all this I sense this unconscious idea of dividing. He should go here - she should go there. Some waiting in the wings for the perfect opportunity to jump in with a subtle hint of disagreement that are unable to control their desire to keep others in line.
It's all nitpicking. The book's solution is the only thing that worked for me which in effect made me useful.
Another unconscious thing that I think plagues minds are this idea that because we have half-steppers among us, we think doom & gloom and the end of AA. Our perspective is such a deal breaker in these matters that these kinds of topics seperate a people that should be sticking together. But Bill did make it clear very early in the book with us being people that normally do not mix.
Thanks for wording this so thoughtfully!
Cling to the thought that, in God's hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have - the key to life and happiness for others. With it you can avert death and misery for them. page 124 BB

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Brock
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Re: There is A solution

Post by Brock » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:56 am

Yes, yes & yes. It is the Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. Why do you insist that it is different?
I did not insist that it is different, the last time you put up the proverb like this -

There are hundreds of paths up the mountain,
All leading to the same place,
So it doesn't matter which path you take.
The only person wasting time
Is the one who runs around the mountain
Telling everyone that his or her path is wrong.
~Hindu Proverb~
You followed that by saying -
The Steps are the best path available to alcoholics. Some have been blessed by their HP with recovery no matter what or how or if they did the Steps.
Saying people have recovered no matter what or how or if they did the steps, is not yes, yes & yes, it is no, no & crapola.
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."

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PaigeB
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Re: There is A solution

Post by PaigeB » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:27 am

Are you the only one who suffers when you call another person's path "crappola"? When I came in I was really hoping you folks would throw me out so I could go drink some more! In fact I did that once when I was in my 20's - returning 17 years later selfishly afraid to die, but still I wanted you to tell me that you all had rules and tests that I had to pass! Instead they invited me to stay. And come back.

This "crappola" that you spew is not truth telling. This is judgement and you are not qualified to judge anyone but yourself. Our founders learned this when they took the word "sincere" out of the Third Tradition. They learned and modified their behavior and their legacy to us based upon what they learned. And they knew that we would not be ruined from the outside, but from the inside. They did not mean drug addicts and 1/2 Steppers would ruin us either... they are part of the outside.

Today's DR quotes Tradition 3. I know ya'll hate the 12 & 12... written by the Founders based on what they learned, but here it is anyway.
THE ONLY REQUIREMENT . . .
"At one time . . . every A.A. group had many membership rules. Everybody was scared witless that something or somebody would capsize the boat. . . .The total list was a mile long. If all those rules had been in effect everywhere, nobody could have possibly joined A.A. at all, . . ."
— TWELVE STEPS AND TWELVE TRADITIONS, pp. 139-40
"...as THE result of these Steps..."

To the newcomer: Get a sponsor and work the 12 Steps of the program. That's what I did. It works.
Cling to the thought that, in God's hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have - the key to life and happiness for others. With it you can avert death and misery for them. page 124 BB

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Re: There is A solution

Post by PaigeB » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:34 am

Nissan cars... Mazda cars were just as good,
Both cars will get you where you need to go. People will pay cash or get a loan. People will drive a new car next year or drive the same old one til it drops. Some will say a Cadillac is the only thing to drive.

But as long as you are pointed in the right direction, you can take any car on Hwy 1 or Hwy 100 and still get to the goal.
Cling to the thought that, in God's hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have - the key to life and happiness for others. With it you can avert death and misery for them. page 124 BB

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Brock
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Re: There is A solution

Post by Brock » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:27 pm

To the newcomer: Get a sponsor and work the 12 Steps of the program. That's what I did. It works.
Yes that's the message we give in AA, not people have recovered no matter what or how or if they did the steps, and I feel quite justified in calling that any derogatory name I choose.
And they knew that we would not be ruined from the outside, but from the inside.
Yes indeed, if someone is carrying a message which is not as the result of these steps as written, but one of recovery by doing them how they choose and if they choose, that is an inside way of ruining somebody else's chance. And any recovered alcoholic who witnesses this happening, and being afraid to judge stays silent, is contributing to the fellowship being ruined from the inside.
Both cars will get you where you need to go.

Not all of us, some don't need to go as far as others, so may get away with the model called “hard drinkers,” also known as it doesn’t matter what or how or if, but what we sell here is the model called “real alcoholics,” also known as the first 164. And if we find someone trying to sell the hard drinkers model in our showroom, we have every right to say they are selling crapola.
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."

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Re: There is A solution

Post by PaigeB » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:51 pm

Why are you so unwilling to believe that a person's HP can cure them with a little help from AA?

You never EVER know what a person has been through or internalized, but if they do not use the words you choose you feel justified in using any derogatory name?

Mother of God. I DO NOT want what you have.
Cling to the thought that, in God's hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have - the key to life and happiness for others. With it you can avert death and misery for them. page 124 BB

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Re: There is A solution

Post by Stepchild » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:34 pm

If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps.

At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start.

pg 58

certain: 1. known for sure; established beyond doubt.

Why would they bother to go out of there way to use that word?

I have to agree with Brock...If you have some other way to do this....Sell it somewhere else. It wouldn't fly in any meetings I attend.

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