Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

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Freedomdaz61
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Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by Freedomdaz61 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:18 am

My name is Darryl and I am an alcoholic from Melbourne Australia. I have over 24 years sobriety at one day at a time. I believe that I suffer from a spiritual malady and this in the AA way of life. The AMA recognise alcoholism as a disease this is demonstrated in residential programs as they are facilitated by medical professionals. Thus is not the AA way... No wonder ppl struggle lapse and relapse ... The AMA are making money out of alcoholics. This is killing them and not treating the illness in its proper context.

Darryl
Last edited by Freedomdaz61 on Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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leejosepho
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Re: disease concept

Post by leejosepho » Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:29 am

Welcome, Darryl! Call me Lee or Joe, and I am an alcoholic who has taken the Steps to have my problem removed because I could not stay sober one-day-at-a-time.
The AMA recognise alcoholism as a disease this is demonstrated in residential programs as they are facilitated by medical professionals. Thus is not the AA way... No wonder ppl struggle lapse and relapse ... The AMA are making money out of alcoholics. This is killing them and not treating the illness in its proper context.
We agree, but we need to be very cautious about how we talk about that lest we be heard as having voiced an opinion A.A. never expresses on an outside issue.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

Freedomdaz61
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Re: Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by Freedomdaz61 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:52 pm

Thanks lee I have altered my title

Freedomdaz61
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Re: Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by Freedomdaz61 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:04 pm

It is physical allergy mental obsession and spiritual solution .....people don't stop drinking without a Concept of a God. This is what I have been following in my life for over 24 years and that's why I am free from bondage of self today and the mental obsession. This is not my opinion this is my experience when I took the third step of our program my spiritual illness was arrested on a daily basis. It remains that way as long as I follow the spiritual principles of AA.

When I was a newcomer I needed medical assistance through detox and rehab then after that I follow aa way. So the detox and rehab was not aa and just fixed me physically so it is not a disease and when ppl come to terms with the truth they truly get sober... God bless all and I pray for those that struggle.

All this information contained in the big book so this is not my opinion.......

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leejosepho
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Re: Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by leejosepho » Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:12 pm

Freedomdaz61 wrote:Thanks lee I have altered my title
Cool beans. Dr. Silkworth clearly admitted this in relation to our alcoholism:

"We doctors have realized for a long time that some form of moral psychology was of urgent importance to alcoholics, but its application presented difficulties beyond our conception. What with our ultra-modern standards, our scientific approach to everything, we are perhaps not well equipped to apply the powers of good that lie outside our synthetic knowledge."

I suspect there might always be someone somewhere trying to figure out some kind of way to market what we actually need, but what we have quickly goes right on out the window whenever monies change hands.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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avaneesh912
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Re: Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by avaneesh912 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:43 am

Very small percentage of members in AA focus on the spiritual malady. For majority its the amount of alcohol they drink after they take that first drink. Thats why we have so many slogans to stay away from the 1st drink, when a real alcoholic may start of with a vigor but as the spiritual malady creeps back in, he/she loses the mojo and for them the 1st drink looks so a solution, they hit the blind spot and end up drunk. Really don't know what else to do. Two days ago the guy sounded all dandy and was the discussion leader and yesterday he was at the back of the room whining about his wife because she wants to walk out of his life. Tragedy. May be not. Perhaps now he will find a new sponsor to actually work the 12 steps. I doubt if he still have a better understand of powerlessness. There is a thread going on to discuss this. Its just not about the craving.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)

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Tosh
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Re: Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by Tosh » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:48 pm

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An 'allergy' is an abnormal reaction to a substance; for alcoholics that substance is alcohol. The abnormal reaction is that once we consume a drink-or-two, we crave for more. This doesn't happen to normal drinkers; Mrs Tosh can open a bottle of wine, have a glass-or-two, and then put the wine back in the fridge and feel perfectly comfortable. She doesn't have an allergic effect with alcohol; she doesn't crave for more; she's not an alcoholic.

And if you combine 'the allergy' with a mental obsession for booze; a mind that when we aren't drinking is thinking about drinking, a mind that forces us to start drinking, thereby triggering the allergy, you end up with a pretty unhealthy cycle of drinking that isn't easy to escape from.

This is all experiential; it can't really be dismissed if we've experienced it.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Tosh
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Re: Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by Tosh » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:55 am

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Well since A.A. is a bottom-up 'organisation' (it's not an organised, I know I know), maybe you should push those changes through?

Other than that, I suspect you're trolling or attention seeking, so I'll bow out.

Regards

Tosh
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Re: Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by leejosepho » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:20 am

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If you might know any related details, please share them. I have never heard of A.A. making any statement other than this:

"The doctor's theory that we have an allergy to alcohol interests us. As laymen, our opinion as to its soundness may, of course, mean little. But as ex-problem drinkers, we can say that his explanation makes good sense. It explains many things for which we cannot otherwise account." (our comment within "The Doctor's Opinion" portion of our book)

However, and even though I do not know of any better, I do believe "allergy" might not be the most-accurate term to use there.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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Tosh
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Re: Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by Tosh » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:08 am

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Okay, fair one, I apologise, I don't think you're trolling. Misguided maybe, but not trolling.

So you got sober in A.A. and now just want to change it to what you think is the correct information?

Have you ever heard of the term 'pissing in the wind'?
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Tosh
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Re: Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by Tosh » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:19 am

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I sponsor a pschotherapist and if you mention cbt to him in the context of recovering from alcoholism, he'll just screw his face up. But I'm not knocking cbt, I'm sponsoring another guy who is doing an 18 week course of it too. I'd say use anything that helps, what-ever it is.

A.A. with it's warts (I don't have rose tinted glasses) works for me, even as an atheist.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Tosh
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Re: Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by Tosh » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:21 pm

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If you try to find the definition of an alcoholic, if you look in different places, you'll find different answers. You see an 'alcoholic' is a concept that will mean different things to different people.

In A.A. an alcoholic, according to the Docs opinion is someone who experiences a craving for more booze once they start drinking, and they obsess about drinking when they're not drinking.

So maybe the word 'allergy' is used incorrectly. Then what? We're still left with the obsession and craving. I personally stick with 'phenomenon of craving' rather than 'allergy' at meetings because if there's someone new there, I don't want to confuse them.

You know, there's a very famous story about a bloke who is shot with an arrow, who refuses medical treatment until he's worked out who shot the arrow at him, what his name was, what the arrow is made out of, etc. In the meantime he's dying of his injury.

All you're doing is arguing about the arrow.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Re: Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by leejosepho » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:52 pm

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I totally understand, but I do not think any actual harm is done...and neither do I understand why Tosh is giving your grief here. That is quite unusual for him.

Some people seem to need to view alcoholism as a disease for the sake of some kind of dignity, and it costs me nothing to let them have that.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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Re: Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by Tosh » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:25 pm

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Thanks, Lee, I'll try to tone down my posting style; I didn't realise I was giving grief. I must be in an argumentative mood; the problem is mine.

Apologies to Empowered.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Re: Alcoholism in AA is classed as a spiritual malady

Post by leejosepho » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:42 am

It is not that you had done anything horrible, Tosh. It is just that I prefer to follow the other guy's lead all the way out whenever possible and especially when he believes he has something new for us all. His thought might end up being nonsense, but trying to quash it dismissively only reinforces it in the minds of some and adds no clarity for anyone.

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It looks like our fellow is gone now, but I suspect he was referencing some clinical tests related to mere food allergies and having nothing to do with out-of-control drinking.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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