Concerning "gurus" and "guides"

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ezdzit247
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Re: Concerning "gurus" and "guides"

Post by ezdzit247 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:01 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Db1105 wrote:I never knew AA was screwed up until I read it here on the internet.
Consider yourself fortunate, if you wish. I certainly would. In my own case, God as you understand God seemed to make certain I got started in a setting where I would be shown how to survive and recover even in spite of the state of today's AA.
LOL....Db1105 was being ironic in that one sentence of his post, which was clearly apparent by the sentence which followed that one.
Db1105 wrote:....There is a trend of some to tear others and other groups down to build themselves up.
I agree with Db's observation. I see the trend too and I don't think it's very helpful to newcomers.
“To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children...to leave the world a better place...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded.” -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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leejosepho
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Re: Concerning "gurus" and "guides"

Post by leejosepho » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:30 pm

ezdzit247 wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Db1105 wrote:I never knew AA was screwed up until I read it here on the internet.
Consider yourself fortunate, if you wish. I certainly would. In my own case, God as you understand God seemed to make certain I got started in a setting where I would be shown how to survive and recover even in spite of the state of today's AA.
LOL....Db1105 was being ironic in that one sentence of his post, which was clearly apparent by the sentence which followed that one.
Perceptions vary, and I simply heard what was said.
ezdzit247 wrote:
Db1105 wrote:....There is a trend of some to tear others and other groups down to build themselves up.
I agree with Db's observation. I see the trend too and I don't think it's very helpful to newcomers.
Same here, and that is part of why I share facts as I do while occasionally culling bullshit along the way.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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avaneesh912
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Re: Concerning "gurus" and "guides"

Post by avaneesh912 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:21 pm

Same here, and that is part of why I share facts as I do while occasionally culling bullshit along the way.
I agree with Lee. LOL. I am only reminded of the little well frog story.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)

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leejosepho
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Re: Concerning "gurus" and "guides"

Post by leejosepho » Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:38 am

avaneesh912 wrote:I am only reminded of the little well frog story.
I do not see the connection between that and the matter of sorting fact and fiction, but I do recall being completely overwhelmed like that little frog at first...kind of like the newborn that could never have believed the fullness of life could only be found and experienced beyond the seeming comfort of the womb after having been nurtured and grown to navigate it.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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leejosepho
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Re: Concerning "gurus" and "guides"

Post by leejosepho » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:23 am

As borrowed from another thread for the sake of discussion here...
historical literature shows Bill repeatedly ingested LSD...about 15 years after he'd written out the Steps and just over 20 years after AA was founded.

Back in the day, many things were happening in AA that were controversial and 'hushed up'...

Bill fancied himself an engineer... His interest in chemical shortcuts (decades later) may surprise some here, but he wasn't what most would call a 'godly' man; rather he was shrewd, always focused on marketable solutions (selling books, collecting royalties, limousine perks, etc.) In behavior, he was NO saint either - according to anecdotal hearsay...

Most AAs would prefer a sanitized version of Bill W., our No.1 Man.

Bill, a libertine, was fascinated with Ouji boards and LSD...

Do you accept Bill as he was, or does that reality upset you?
Huxley called Bill “the greatest social architect” of the 20th century"...

The Bible is revered by many as the "word of God", yet most of its heros, except for one, were very ordinary individuals who were deeply flawed...whose lives seemed to have been suddenly changed by an experience, new idea, spiritual awakening, i.e.something greater than themselves...

Millions of lives have "breathed easier" because [Bill] lived...
Dealing with all the above and even more came just a little at a time for me over many years, and the first things I ever had to deal with were these from our book:

"In our personal stories you will find a wide variation in the way each teller approaches and conceives of the Power which is greater than himself...
"On one proposition, however, these men and women are strikingly agreed. Every one of them has gained access to, and believes in, a Power greater than himself. This Power has in each case accomplished the miraculous, the humanly impossible...
"...thousands of men and women, worldly indeed...flatly declare...a revolutionary change in their way of living and thinking...soon after they whole-heartedly met a few simple requirements...a powerful reason why one should have faith." (pages 50-51)

Since there were no "thousands" in A.A. (the contextual reference) at the time of that writing, was Bill a hustler, a social architect, a wishful thinker, a visionary or what? Today I would say, "Oh, maybe a little of each...and without ever having claimed any kind of title for himself." In fact, I have heard it said -- mere anecdotal hearsay, mind you -- Bill would have liked to have been "just another member of A.A." but could never seem to find much of that kind of simple-and-quiet recognition from others.

More troubling to me that any of Bill's rightly-or-wrongly-perceived imperfections, however, was this he had written:

"...thousands of men and women, worldly indeed..."

Within the religious environment of my childhood, "worldly" amounted to a ticket straight to hell. But then I eventually discovered this:

"We have shown how we got out from under. You say, 'Yes, I'm willing. But am I to be consigned to a life where I shall be stupid, boring and glum, like some righteous people I see?'" (page 152)

So "worldly", it turned out, simply meant something other than "stupid, boring and glum" among the otherwise-seeming "righteous".
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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