Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

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jd7087

Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by jd7087 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:31 pm

Any thoughts on how to resolve this struggle ?

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PaigeB
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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by PaigeB » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:49 am

One word... semantics.

The book says, "DO NOT let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you." (BB pg 47)

For me Step 2 "Came to believe that AA could restore us to sanity."
Step 3 "... turn my will and my life over to the care of AA"

It is a mental practice not unlike other mental practices in AA, such as maintaining a vigilance watching for selfishness and self centeredness... remembering to pause when agitated and remembering to act in a way that does not harm others... these are daily things we change in our minds - acting on a willingness to pursue a more principled path.

You are not alone. We live in the solution together.
Step 6 is "AA's way of stating, the best possible attitude one can take in order to make a beginning on this lifetime job... with most of them we shall have to be content with patient improvement." 12&12 Step Six, p.65

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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by ann2 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:10 am

For help with a particular brand of HP, go see the specialists in that area. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

Talking about this HP or that one distracts us from our primary purpose. However, I think that is the primary purpose of places called "churches" and people who work there. Ask one of them. Let's keep our forums inclusive, and attractive to anyone, even those who don't have the same HP as me or you.

Ann
"If I don't take twenty walks, Billy Beane send me to Mexico" -- Miguel Tejada

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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by Tosh » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:30 am

jd7087 wrote:Any thoughts on how to resolve this struggle ?
I don't even see the struggle. Why can't you just make Jesus your Higher Power? Many do without a problem, I'm sure.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by Jaywalker Steve » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:22 am

I've stayed sober with Jesus as my higher power and without. Regardless of who I chose as my higher power(or who chose me), taking the 12 Steps to the very best of my ability was imparitive. As a result, this promise from page 55 of our book came true.
The consciousness of your belief is sure to come to you.
Unlike organized religion, there is no dogma here. We are free to believe or not believe as we see fit.
Every group has men and women who put too much thought and effort into their daily sobriety and not enough of themselves into their daily living. - Ed B., Akron, OH

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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by TonyWARMS » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:22 am

Believe as you believe (or, don't).
And, don't let anyone in the program tell you any different.


Peace, Tony
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(I don't know where I heard this)

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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by chefchip » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:35 am

My brother is an Evangelical Christian, which has been the reason for many nights of involved discussions :lol: But, for about 5 years, he was a facilitator for a twelve-step based group for alcoholics/addicts in his church. While it was not AA/NA, per se, because of the overt Christian leanings and preachings, he still came to respect the fact that the steps and the program were neutral on the subject. Even in as homogeneous an organization as Evangelical Christian churches, there is diversity in belief, people are at different places in their faith. He liked/loved the fact that, at least, he didn't have to be worried about orthodoxy and could concentrate on getting people the help they needed.

Our religions, if we have any, are outside issues and have no place in the rooms of AA. I try to be very careful even not to bring my specific concept of god into the rooms, since it has nothing to do with the steps or the program. It is mine.

Chip
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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by leejosepho » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:24 am

"'Come, what's all this about?' [Bill] queried."
"[Ebby] looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly, he said, 'I've got religion.'"
"I was aghast...shocked, but interested...for I was hopeless."

As Bill continues, he speaks of "...that proffered temperance pledge I never signed; my grandfather's good natured contempt of some church folk and their doings; his insistence that the spheres really had their music; but his denial of the preacher's right to tell him how he must listen..." (page 10)

There is where A.A. made the break from religion, and that is what saved my ragged butt!

It *is* suggested we "Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer." (page 87) at least in relation to books, "morning devotions", prayers and such, for example, but even things like that are always said or suggested within this kind of context:

"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book...honestly asking yourself what they mean to you...
"...great news to us, for we had assumed we could not make use of spiritual principles unless we accepted many things on faith which seemed difficult to believe... So it was comforting to learn that we could commence at a simpler level." (page 47)

My point? "...his denial of the preacher's right to tell him how he must listen." In A.A. it makes no difference what anyone believes, it only matters what we actually do.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by Db1105 » Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:59 pm

As my sponsor said, "if you want to save your soul, go to church. If you want to save your ass, go to AA."

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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by leejosepho » Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:59 pm

Db1105 wrote:As my sponsor said, "if you want to save your soul, go to church. If you want to save your ass, go to AA."
Have you ever wondered whether the two can actually be separated?

I could never find any way to do that.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by Tommy-S » Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:45 pm

Thanks JD
Any thoughts on how to resolve this struggle ?
Yep...Work the Steps... Step 12 reads (and it's been my experience, so I consider it a promise) "...as a result of these Steps..." not instead of.

As one of my sponsors was fond of saying, "Do the work, you'll be contacted"

And if you already have an HP, then working the Steps will validate your choice... It's a win-win, friend :)

Tommy
Together, we don't have to cave in or wimp out to that Fatal First One, no matter what today!

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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by leejosepho » Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:05 am

Tommy-S wrote:As one of my sponsors was fond of saying, "Do the work, you'll be contacted."
I had never heard that before, but yes, exactly!

"Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him." (page 46)
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by Tommy-S » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:26 am

I had never heard that before,
There are benefits to being teachable :)
Together, we don't have to cave in or wimp out to that Fatal First One, no matter what today!

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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by Db1105 » Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:11 am

leejosepho wrote:
Db1105 wrote:As my sponsor said, "if you want to save your soul, go to church. If you want to save your ass, go to AA."
Have you ever wondered whether the two can actually be separated?

I could never find any way to do that.
Yes.

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Re: Jesus and (or vs.) 12 Step's Higher Power contrast ?

Post by leejosepho » Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:22 am

Db1105 wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Db1105 wrote:As my sponsor said, "if you want to save your soul, go to church. If you want to save your ass, go to AA."
Have you ever wondered whether the two can actually be separated?

I could never find any way to do that.
Yes.
I concede. It is at least possible to "work" the Steps without actually taking them.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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