If AA is not religious then why do we say the lord's prayer?

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Re: If AA is not religious then why do we say the lord's pra

Postby PaigeB » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:41 pm

Learning to follow is hard and yet can train us to be prepared for anything when the day doesn't go our way. Looking at things openly instead of with self gratification can be humbling.

YES.
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
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Re: If AA is not religious then why do we say the lord's pra

Postby Layne » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:06 am

PaigeB wrote:
Learning to follow is hard and yet can train us to be prepared for anything when the day doesn't go our way. Looking at things openly instead of with self gratification can be humbling.

YES.

Second the yes. Sometimes in life, I do things I don't agree with because the overall result outweighs the present circumstances.
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Re: If AA is not religious then why do we say the lord's pra

Postby Greywolf » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:54 pm

Soberguy27 wrote:At almost all the meetings I attend the lord's prayer is always said at the end of the meeting.

If you've been around over 50 years like you say, then you know that when you came in the meetings were closed with the Lord's Prayer. The invitation was "For those of you who care to join me, we'll close this meeting in the usual manner with the Lord's Prayer."

I will admit that newer people coming into AA don't always follow the traditional ways of doing things. First of all they are new and still full of themselves and they "know best." So they make changes. If I don't like the changes I can go to a different meeting or start a new meeting.

Just as closing a meeting with an Out Back chant wouldn't make AA an Aboriginal organization, closing the meeting with the Lord's Prayer doesn't make AA a Christian organization.

Soberguy27 wrote:The AA Preamble states: “AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution.” This is clear enough.


What is NOT clear is how closing the meeting with an Aboriginal chant allies AA with the Aborigines or AA allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution because they close the meeting with the Lord's Prayer.

Were AA started in the Vatican, we would likely close our meetings with something particular to Catholicism and that wouldn't make AA Catholic.

Soberguy27 wrote:The Third Tradition says: “The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.” It does not say, “first-class membership for Christians, second-class membership for everyone else.”


What does ' It does not say, “first-class membership for Christians, second-class membership for everyone else.”' have to do with the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking? In you effort to make an unmake-able point, you have, as we say in football, out kicked your coverage.

Soberguy27 wrote:It is true that no one is “forced” to say the “Lord’s Prayer”. The fact remains that someone who is not a Christian is forced into either dishonestly saying something he doesn’t believe, or feeling left out as everyone else in the room participates in a Christian prayer ritual. This is unfair and unnecessary.

"For those of you who care to join me, we'll close this meeting in the usual manner with the Lord's Prayer." Join me or not. I couldn't care less which you do. We are closing the meeting and here's the way we do it. "If you want what we have and are willing to go to any lengths to get it..." Enduring our closing the meeting with the LP might be one of the lengths some may have to endure. Grow up. Get over it. Join in or not but what makes you think anybody is going to change what works just for you. If we did you would only find something else to cry about. Like the laundry list of complaints below.

This entire post reminds me of a religious group that demands no prayers in school because they are offended while demanding time for their afternoon prayers.

Soberguy27 wrote:This was written by an aa member with over 50 years of sobriety.

This was responded to by an AA member with over 54 of sobriety. Do what the Japanese, Chinese, Indians, Muslims, Hindus, and millions of other non Christian alcoholics do, start meetings that work for you if the ones you go to don't. You can get free guidelines on how to do this. I can just about promise, no one will complain that you are doing it differently. There are very few things you can't do such as change the steps and call it AA.
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Re: If AA is not religious then why do we say the lord's pra

Postby PaigeB » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:42 am

PaigeB wrote:
Learning to follow is hard and yet can train us to be prepared for anything when the day doesn't go our way. Looking at things openly instead of with self gratification can be humbling.

YES.

... Because if I practice now - by choice - when I get to that place where I am completely stuck and see NO CHOICE than I will remember that "following" the Winners WORKS!
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
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Re: If AA is not religious then why do we say the lord's pra

Postby Greywolf » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:18 am

PaigeB wrote:
PaigeB wrote:
Learning to follow is hard and yet can train us to be prepared for anything when the day doesn't go our way. Looking at things openly instead of with self gratification can be humbling.

YES.

... Because if I practice now - by choice - when I get to that place where I am completely stuck and see NO CHOICE than I will remember that "following" the Winners WORKS!

Reminds me of early on practicing One day at a Time when times were GOOD so I would have experience if I needed One Day at a Time when times were tough. Serendipitous benefit, I found One Day at a Time to be a great way to live.

That expanded to being "present" moment by moment. I try to be "present" when my wife is talking to me even when I rather be doing what I was doing when she started. Fortunately or unfortunately she's a sniffer dog for seeing when I'm not present. =biggrin

Wives make good trainers if you let them.
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Re: If AA is not religious then why do we say the lord's pra

Postby Theo50 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:08 pm

If acceptance is an important concept of AA, I would think that AA would be open to acceptance of others that do not agree with the AA concepts. I recall from history that it was once accepted that the world was flat and that one may have been killed if they chose to disagree with that belief. I would hope to think that the authors of the BB of AA would have wanted to freely accept ideas of change.

Diversity and inclusiveness is become widespread in the world as well tolerance of other's beliefs.

Isn't change one of the constants in life?

I do not have an issue if AA is considered religious or not but aren't the 12 steps AA somewhat based on the bible or am I incorrect on this?
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Re: If AA is not religious then why do we say the lord's pra

Postby avaneesh912 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:00 am

I do not have an issue if AA is considered religious or not but aren't the 12 steps AA somewhat based on the bible or am I incorrect on this?


No you are not. But the brilliance of our co-founders and the first few was to document all the traits of the alcoholic. The first 43 odd pages they go to great lengths to drive home the fact that an alcoholics mind is warped. And that the defense must come from his higher power. And that is an individuals personal conclusion. Then they go to the next chapter to show how we can access the power.
Show him, from your own experience, how the peculiar mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power (Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)
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Re: If AA is not religious then why do we say the lord's pra

Postby Layne » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:15 am

aren't the 12 steps AA somewhat based on the bible


If they are...what then?
If they aren't...what then?

The answer to the question is not as important as what an individual does with the information provided in the 12 steps. I have no idea what the very first thought produced by the human species was, but other members of the species have been borrowing and expanding upon it ever since. In that vein, I will borrow now
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. Carl Sagan


There seems to be commonalities that run through various religions, as well as non-religious philosophical traditions. It is in my best interest to be open to the information they provide in deciding upon my path in life because I find beneficial advice from a variety of sources without having to become a convert to apply it. Basically I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.
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Re: If AA is not religious then why do we say the lord's pra

Postby Greywolf » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:43 pm

I do not have an issue if AA is considered religious or not but aren't the 12 steps AA somewhat based on the bible or am I incorrect on this?


No you are not. But the brilliance of our co-founders and the first few was to document all the traits of the alcoholic. The first 43 odd pages they go to great lengths to drive home the fact that an alcoholics mind is warped. And that the defense must come from his higher power. And that is an individuals personal conclusion. Then they go to the next chapter to show how we can access the power.


I like the Carl Sagan quote above. If Bill had invented the 12 steps from scratch as many seem to believe, he would have had to gone back way before the Bible to start. Bill has said and written that Ebby gave him his 6-step program and Bill expanded it to 12 steps.

Others have said Bill took the Oxford Groups 6 Absolutes and derived the 12 steps. I never gave it much thought before I retired. I tend to think Bill is right about what he used more so than the historians.
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Re: If AA is not religious then why do we say the lord's pra

Postby PaigeB » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:47 am

avaneesh912 wrote:
I do not have an issue if AA is considered religious or not but aren't the 12 steps AA somewhat based on the bible or am I incorrect on this?


No you are not. But the brilliance of our co-founders and the first few was to document all the traits of the alcoholic. The first 43 odd pages they go to great lengths to drive home the fact that an alcoholics mind is warped. And that the defense must come from his higher power. And that is an individuals personal conclusion. Then they go to the next chapter to show how we can access the power.

Yes, of course the book is about finding an HP and having a spiritual experience.

I am so glad that the BB goes on to give us the TOOLS - the Practical living, personal experience, stuff that helps us change our way of thinking. Otherwise I could just go to church - any church - so long as I maintained my own idea of an HP. The Tools of this program help my HP help me stay in fit condition on a daily basis. And they help me grow - like meetings, I never hear anything I can't use now or later. Tools. Church never gave me that.
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
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