The Story Irma Livoni, circa 1941

The 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, the principles that hold our groups and society together.

Re: The Story Irma Livoni, circa 1941

Postby PastDelegate57/65 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:43 am

That's where you ran off the rails.....claiming that she was KICKED OUT OF AA. That never happened. Nor did I deny the existence of the Letter. Perhaps you should reread the Letter. People keep spreading this misinformation because it makes for sensationalism. That's what Matt M was after. Thought it would make him some sort of Rock Star, when in fact, it made him look silly.

Our AA History is important......knowing the TRUTH of where we came from is so much a part of any real RECOVERED Alcoholics life. So yeah, I get a little testy when people play games with AA History.

Bill
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Re: The Story Irma Livoni, circa 1941

Postby PastDelegate57/65 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:50 am

I wish we could post documents here. I have all the Historical Documentation to back what I wrote. Furthermore, many groups kick people out of GROUP for disrupting. Happens all the time. I have a letter from the GM of GSO to a person who was kicked out of many groups in my Area because of his disruptions. The GM backed the groups and said they had the right to do that.

NO ONE can deny ANY AA MEMBER their right to be a member of AA, but they sure as heck can deny them the right to disrupt a group or meeting. People distort Tradition 3 all the time. It's a sport in AA. Too bad they don't take the time to read ALL of the material written about our Traditions or people like me would not have to be explaining things to them all the time.

A group can throw anyone out of their building if they want.....HEAD FIRST if needed.

Bill
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Re: The Story Irma Livoni, circa 1941

Postby PastDelegate57/65 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:59 am

We have a couple of secret Facebook sites that are Anonymity protected and available to anyone who wants to join. The only requirement is that you be a member of AA. We have 2 sites.....one called "Three Legacies of AA" and the other is "AA History-Facts vs Myths". They are awesome learning opportunities and will help ANY AA MEMBER become well versed in Traditions and AA HIstory.

It will also prevent people from falling for stories like the Irma Livoni HOAX. Knowledge is free in AA, you just have to know where to find it. If anyone is interesting in joining our sites on Facebook with complete anonymity protection, simply email me at (Moderator Edit: No links are allowed and emails posted publicly are ill advised. Anyone wishing to contact Past Delegate can send him a Private Message for his email address) Please see our Forums Policies and guidelines here viewforum.php?f=10

We DO POST DOCUMENTS on those sites....not just our version of a story.

Bill
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Re: The Story Irma Livoni, circa 1941

Postby PastDelegate57/65 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:21 pm

Unfortunately, I can't put attachments on this site. I have an excellent Historical Document put together by a well known Archivist/HIstorian on this subject that tells the true story. She was called forward for her behavior. Sybil was sympathetic because she had been a former Hooker as well. Irma was asked to come before the Group Members to discuss her intentions with the Group which did not appear to have anything to do with Recovery.

She never showed up.

And NO, she did not die. Included in the Documentations are copies of a Marriage Certificates (she married in 1943, two years after she supposedly died in Sybil and Matt's DRAMA), Records of being held in a State Hospital for the Insane, Death certificate (she died August 24, 1974 in Arizona which is 33 years after the AA incident in 1941).

The point is that people in AA make up all sorts of things and spread them as fact. Strong Sponsorship and active Service in AA will go a long way in keeping folks from falling for this stuff. Drunks love a good story and sure as heck won't let details like THE TRUTH stand in the way of their tales.
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Re: The Story Irma Livoni, circa 1941

Postby PaigeB » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:52 am

Welcome PastDelegate. I always appreciate hearing both sides of the story.

We have a Drama Queen in my f2f Homegroup, literally a thespian, but she never seems to step away from it. Who knows if she is sober ~ or even an alcoholic for that matter. But drunk or sober: Once an alcoholic always an alcoholic. And even sober alkies can act badly & out of fear. I mean, what will they say if there is a Hooker among us? Back then it must have been a real scandal! And the wives!! What would they think? Fear that she could bring the whole thing down around their ears - ruin the one good thing they had going... Fear driven. Classic alkies. Control & Protect.

I get it.

Both Stories lend something for us to learn about our perceptions. Do you happen to know what happen to Matt in the later years? I mean, he could have had a spiritual awakening and changed his own reactions to life, right?
If I'm not able to say how I'm working my program today, then I'm not working my program.
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