Step 2 for a non believer?

[BigD]

Let me start of by saying that I don't believe there's a God out there that directs, controls, or intervenes in any way in our lives.

So what about me in regards to Step 2? I was in a step study last night, we are on step 2. Everyone's talking about how God works in their lives, etc. Now, my sponsor, and the others in my step study group, know my beliefs. They have assured me in the past that since I don't profess a belief in a supernatural God that I can use the AA group as my higher power. (I'm fine with that: AA as a group is certainly a power greater than me.) The 12x12 book, chapter 2, even states that I can use the group as my HP.

At the end of the meeting my sponsor handed me a newsletter from our local intergroup council.

In one of the articles/columns, regarding Step 2, it states:
"The essence of Step 2 in our recovery is that a doorknob, a tree, a light bulb, the AA group, or a sponsor cannot restore us to sanity. We require this Power to fulfill both criteria: a native capacity beyond human abilities and intelligence to reinstate sanity. Nothing less will reform our warped livees. Nothing less can."


I'm confused...now AA literature is saying I can't use the group as my higher power....I'm sensing contradictions here...the Big Book even states in Ch. 5, I believe, "probably no human power could restore us to sanity, but God could and would if he were sought."

So what is it...I can only use the group as my HP until I "come around" to a supernatural, non human God? What if that never happens?

This program MUST work for agnostics...I see "We Agnostics" groups all over the place, you can find them in many major cities, they have folks with lots of years sober. Help me out here.

I am starting to wonder if this program will work for me.

[PaigeB]

"The essence of Step 2 in our recovery is that a doorknob, a tree, a light bulb, the AA group, or a sponsor cannot restore us to sanity. We require this Power to fulfill both criteria: a native capacity beyond human abilities and intelligence to reinstate sanity. Nothing less will reform our warped livees. Nothing less can."

Bull. Keep in mind that your newsletter (not AA approved literature) contained an article written by a person with an opinion. I have been using the 24/7 World Wide Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous for 2 years, so far. Also known to me as a Group Of Drunks, G.O.D. When people talk about how god works in their life, my brain just puts in the periods!

AA HAS RESTORED ME TO SANITY! They have taught me how to live a semblance of a normal life, as normal as any other recovering drunk. We all have faults. The BB says it is possible to use AA or a door knob, but a door knob doesn't work as it has no effect on my recovery. I can manipulate a door knob or a tree. But the WW Group Conscience I cannot manipulate. I am humbled by the FACT that using AA as my higher power does work - if I work it! I do what my sponsor says to do to stay sober.

One more thing. I read a study of a Functional MRI being done on a group of Buddhist monks meditating and a group of Franciscan nuns praying. The affect on the brain was remarkably similar. I do not pray to my HP for things, I just become very meditative between the prayers at the meetings - listening deeply with my "inner-most ear" and when I am not in a meeting I check 2 AA websites for the Daily Reflections on line, take & make phone calls to AA's and am active at the District level. I open the church, chair meetings and seldom say no to service work like being a speaker (1st time Monday the 25th). The effect of prayer and/or meditation brings us closer to other human "spirits" - the part of the brain affected is the part that tells us we are separate from one another.

Somewhere in the world, every hour of everyday, a Group Of Drunks is meeting with like minds toward recovery in this program. I am never alone in my struggle or my survival.

I am here today BigD - we can do this too. AA would NOT WORK if it were a set of rules. We get to chose what our HP looks like, how big it is and what it can or cannot do. If that worked, we would all be in church! The BB says we can chose, and we can. Group Of Drunks can and will if they are sought. It is just semantics and some effort on my part to learn tolerance. Remember "Love and tolerance is our code." That is AA approved! Pg 84 - right after the Promises.

This thing works if you work it!

[leejosepho]

Let me start of by saying that I don't believe there's a God out there that directs, controls, or intervenes in any way in our lives.

No problem there since one's belief (or lack of it) changes nothing either way anyway.

So what about me in regards to Step 2? ...
Everyone's talking about how God works in their lives, etc.

Are you willing to believe they believe and do some investigation (by taking the Steps) yourself?

Now, my sponsor, and the others in my step study group ... have assured me in the past that since I don't profess a belief in a supernatural God that I can use the AA group as my higher power.

That is the essence of being willing to believe they believe.

At the end of the meeting my sponsor handed me a newsletter from our local intergroup council.

In one of the articles/columns, regarding Step 2, it states:
"The essence of Step 2 in our recovery is that a doorknob, a tree, a light bulb, the AA group, or a sponsor cannot restore us to sanity ..."

Any sane person would/should know better than that in any kind of literal sense, but such is the way of the occasional, still-gonna-try-to-do-it-my-own-damned-way philosopher!

Clarence Snyder, the first A.A. in Cleveland, was once shocked when he later heard about people elsewhere placing faith in lightbulbs for recovery, and he wrote quite an insightful pamphlet about that ... and if I can find that pamphlet somewhere here on my hard drive, I will later post it for you. Overall, such ideas are completely ridiculous even though some people actually can make use of such to initially help get them past the seeming "God hurdle".

As an aside: My personal favorite is the story of a man who had a tree for his so-called "HP", and he was in the habit of visiting that tree every morning and evening ...

... and then one day he arrived home from work and found that tree had been cut down and removed from the property, and he cried aloud, "Oh God!"

I'm confused...now AA literature is saying I can't use the group as my higher power....

Think about that for just a moment: I am powerless, you are powerless and so is everyone else ...

... and powerless + powerless + powerless leaves us all hanging with even more powerlessness all around us than when we were each still all on our own! Nevertheless, there still is something that can happen within the human psyche to keep us going for a bit while checking things out for ourselves within the protection of human community.

So what is it...I can only use the group as my HP until I "come around" to a supernatural, non human God? What if that never happens?

If you take the Steps just as they are in the book, that simply *will* happen. Guaranteed.

Caution: I have seen people get up and leave and never come back after hearing that.

This program MUST work for agnostics...

You bet, and most of us were exactly that even if we did not know so at the time. With a religious background, I had refused to even read that chapter when I first came around ... but then found a bit of willingness to do so after ending up drinking again.

I am starting to wonder if this program will work for me.

Same for me at the time, but the tools in this box can fix any "loose nut"!

[BigD]

Paige, thanks! Great post. Loved it.

My higher power is the fellowship, and right now, today, that's keeping me sober, and that's all I need today.

Your post helped keep me sober, too! I needed to hear that.

[BigD]

So what is it...I can only use the group as my HP until I "come around" to a supernatural, non human God? What if that never happens?

If you take the Steps just as they are in the book, that simply *will* happen. Guaranteed.

Caution: I have seen people get up and leave and never come back after hearing that.

This program MUST work for agnostics...

You bet, and most of us were exactly that even if we did not know so at the time.

When I said the program works for agnostics, I don't mean they started out agnostic and came to believe. I mean they are STILL agnostic, and still sober in the program.

So, you're of the opinion that if I work the steps, I "will" come to believe in a supernatural god? Guaranteed?

What about the hundreds of "We Agnostic" groups that are sprinkled throughout the world, with tons of sobriety? How do you account for them?

[PaigeB]

BigD? I have found that it is not necessary to understand how another person accounts for my sobriety as an atheist. I have worked the steps and continue to work the steps and I remain sober today, one day at a time. You can too. I understand that Lee's statement that you "*will*" come to believe in a supernatural entity is a testament of Lee's experience. That is what we get in this program: Experience Strength and Hope. Take what you want, and with a breath of kindness, blow the rest away.

It is great that each of us builds our own program using the pieces of what we take from others and apply them, with the assistance of a sponsor's perception, to our own ES&H. Stick around BigD! This program needs you! You & I get to pass along OUR experience, strength and hope to the still suffering alcoholic. There are many non-believers that WOULD walk out the door.... we might keep them around long enough to build their own ES&H!

[PaigeB]

Being willing to be willing - that is a good point! Opens "the door" a crack. I let this program in and it worked. I remain willing to be willing, but I can't imagine what might occur that would make me a believer as some of my fellows believe. Keepin' it simple = It works IF you Work it (like it says in my signature line!)

[jakpar]

hello, just saying that it interests and impresses me how the same program can and does mean so many different things to different people, and they are all right at the same time. makes for as great a fellowship as it is diverse.

[leejosepho]

When I said the program works for agnostics, I don't mean they started out agnostic and came to believe. I mean they are STILL agnostic, and still sober in the program.

At that particular point, we need to discern what actual program we are talking about ... and I suspect you are talking about the "Don't drink and keep coming back while 'working' the Steps" kind of thing, and I am talking about the program outlined in our Basic Text.

So, you're of the opinion that if I work the steps, I "will" come to believe in a supernatural god? Guaranteed?

Nope, that is utilitarianism. But if you might ever end up *taking* the Steps instead, then yes, there is no possible other outcome.

What about the hundreds of "We Agnostic" groups that are sprinkled throughout the world, with tons of sobriety? How do you account for them?

I do not account for anyone, but here is what I have observed:

Many people "work the Steps (spiritual principles)" to their own personal advantage while hanging onto (or even coming to embrace) various philosophies inconsistent with the original A.A. experience and nevertheless do still manage to remain abstinent from alcohol while believing they are (and always will be) recovering-ing-ing-ing-ing ... or something like that. All of that is fine, of course, and that is the dominant activity going on within today's AA ...

... but that kind of stuff would have, I believe, cost me my very life. And so, and even though very few people ever want to hear it any more, I still just keep right on doing my best to carry the original A.A. message just in case there is yet possibly still at least one more guy or gal like me still stumbling around somewhere out there and in need of eventually hearing it.

[Lali]

At that particular point, we need to discern what actual program we are talking about ... and I suspect you are talking about the "Don't drink and keep coming back while 'working' the Steps" kind of thing, and I am talking about the program outlined in our Basic Text.

I'm not agnostic, nor atheist, but I don't think that's a fair statement. How would we know this?

[Tosh]

This is what Bill W said in reference to atheist/agnostic:

Bill W

If he wishes he could place his own dependence upon his own A.A. group. That group is certainly a "Higher Power," so far as recovery from alcoholism is concerned.

Granted, I've missed out the whole quote, but that doesn't matter. Sticking on step 2 won't give you that spiritual experience you can have whether you believe in a deity or not.

[Tosh]

hello, just saying that it interests and impresses me how the same program can and does mean so many different things to different people, and they are all right at the same time. makes for as great a fellowship as it is diverse.

100% Agree.

Unity in diversity; that to me is a truly spiritual concept.

[leejosepho]

At that particular point, we need to discern what actual program we are talking about ... and I suspect you are talking about the "Don't drink and keep coming back while 'working' the Steps" kind of thing, and I am talking about the program outlined in our Basic Text.

I'm not agnostic, nor atheist, but I don't think that's a fair statement. How would we know this?

Since I am not sure of exactly what you are asking, please correct me if I might miss it here.

We all know AA/A.A. has no authority to require anything of anyone, and that leaves us with this:

"If he is sincerely interested ...
"If he thinks he can do the job in some other way ..." (page 95)

"Don't drink and keep coming back while 'working' the Steps" cannot be found anywhere within "A.A.", the book. Therefore, it can only be some other program even though it is the dominant dogma of today's AA.

[BigD]

"Don't drink and keep coming back while 'working' the Steps" cannot be found anywhere within "A.A.", the book. Therefore, it can only be some other program even though it is the dominant dogma of today's AA.

So, a "strict constructionist" eh? If it ain't in the Big Book, forget it?

The word "sponsor" cannot be found anywhere within "A.A.", the book. (I searched the first 164 pages, the actual program part. It's not there anywhere.) Therefore, it can only be some other program even though it is the dominant dogma of today's AA.

I bet you have a sponsor, though.

[John Boy]

Big D I believe exactly as you do. So your not unique.

You will find within the rooms that people who stay sober as a result of there GOD get upset at people who stay sober without any GOD. I don't go around trying to convince people there is no GOD, but people who believe in GOD do go around trying to convince everyone there is a GOD.

A group of drunks although supportive and helpful is not going to stop your arm from tilting and pouring alcohol down your throat. IMO neither is any super human being. That IMO is going to come down to your choice.

There are lots of atheist AA meetings in your area just call intergroup.