Steps 2 and 3

[Theo50]

If I chose to believe that I was created by God (my HP), then I was created with an alcoholic defect of mind, no different than any mental birth defects.
The human heart does not have any mental intelligence and is only used as a metaphor (is that the correct term?). Any mental change to a person is affected by the brain, not the heart.
have to run, will be back....

The human mind is a very evil. Un-observed it runs wild. Thats the freedom that all humans have. Unfortunately its really warped in an alcoholic. In eastern philosophy its called karma. We are forced to repeat the same action if we dont awaken. We are stuck in the vicious cycle. We become aware of this dysfunction and then by taking action we align ourselves with our HPs will.

"The human mind is a very evil. Un-observed it runs wild"
Is is scary that I believe this statement as well and have tried to explain it to people. I no longer use the word evil. I have tried to explain that humans, just like wild animals, are born with survival instincts and that these instincts can be many times viewed as "bad".

Why wouldn't our HP willing guide us in the right direction before we become dysfunctional? Is it a test to see if we would do it on our own?

[Theo50]

If I chose to believe that I was created by God (my HP), then I was created with an alcoholic defect of mind, no different than any mental birth defects.
The human heart does not have any mental intelligence and is only used as a metaphor (is that the correct term?). Any mental change to a person is affected by the brain, not the heart.

How it's affected depends on what you do. Throw junk into a round pot and you have a pot full of junk, even if it was designed to hold flowers. You chose to drink, presumably your God didn't design you that way.

If there is a creative intelligence, IMO it works in a way we don't begin to understand. I get a spiritual connection with certain people that today's science just doesn't explain. Alcohol had blocked me off from forming those connections.

How do you presume your God didn't design you as an alcoholic? Why do you presume you can comprehend a HP? This is the dilemma I cannot get around.

[avaneesh912]

Why wouldn't our HP willing guide us in the right direction before we become dysfunctional? Is it a test to see if we would do it on our own?

yeah, its like the prodigal son story.

[Theo50]

i am not familiar with the story.
I think in my mind it would be easier if it was acknowledge that the 12 steps are based on God and the bible and just make it easier and stop with the HP term and just go with God as is stated throughout the AA program.
If this was the case, I would just have to learn to accept that I cannot ever pretend to comprehend God and the universe and have faith that anything I perceive as bad in the universe is only because I cannot understand God's purpose. I can only pray for guidance.

Unfortunately this will require me to completely abandon any other beliefs in science and evolution as it will only keep my mind at odds.

[Brock]

Modern thinking priests like AA’s friend Fr. Rohr, say that a lot of stuff in the bible is not to be taken literally. Even the Pope says he believes in evolution, belief in science and evolution is fine, but we might just say it was God who planned it that way.

The HP business is because the word ‘God’ rubs some folks the wrong way, quite understandably I think. We grow up often with the idea of some old fellow with a white beard waiting to punish us for the slightest thing, so we get the wrong idea, just go with the picture that God is love and wants the best for us all, and asking for his direction during each day gets us out of our minds, and helps us keep calm and on the right track.

[Layne]

Unfortunately this will require me to completely abandon any other beliefs in science and evolution as it will only keep my mind at odds.

How so?

How can anyone believe that in the entire universe there is not a medical cure for alcoholism?

If there is, what does it prove?

In that is the case, my HP could just as easily take me back to insanity for any reason that I cannot comprehend.

IF this is true, what then?

[Blue Moon]

How do you presume your God didn't design you as an alcoholic? Why do you presume you can comprehend a HP? This is the dilemma I cannot get around.

Perhaps that's because my conception of "God" differs from others'. I was raised Roman Catholic, and learned much about the concepts such as "fear of God". I found churches to be - literally - spine-chilling, even as a child. I thought everyone felt the same way as I did.

Fast forward to post-drinking recovery. Having had a spiritual awakening, not a religious conversion, I am free to take or leave what I find to be truth, or enlightenment. As such, I find myself more attuned to Buddhism or Taoism, than to modern-era monotheistic dogma.

[Blue Moon]

I think in my mind it would be easier if it was acknowledge that the 12 steps are based on God and the bible and just make it easier and stop with the HP term and just go with God as is stated throughout the AA program.

If true, I would agree .... and would not be in AA. But IMO this is like saying English is based on Latin so we should call it Latin.

Undeniably, AA has Christian roots. But the book is emphatically clear : choose your own conception of God, provided it makes sense to you.

[avaneesh912]

Unfortunately this will require me to completely abandon any other beliefs in science and evolution as it will only keep my mind at odds.

I am strong believer in evolution. But what science cannot do is create life. It has made tremendous progress in extending life. But one day, the body gives up (death). There some religions talk about what happens to the being residing in that body. They go to another body (birth). And the body the being takes depends on the state of consciousness at the time it leaves the body. Thats why I take this giving up alcohol thing seriously. I left it for good. But I have to work on growing spiritually so until I leave the body, my mind dont go back to the old way of thinking.

Watching the short alcoholic Vervet monkey video on youtube and with this eastern philosophy, what if we still have an alcoholic mind?

[Theo50]

Modern thinking priests like AA’s friend Fr. Rohr, say that a lot of stuff in the bible is not to be taken literally. Even the Pope says he believes in evolution, belief in science and evolution is fine, but we might just say it was God who planned it that way.

The HP business is because the word ‘God’ rubs some folks the wrong way, quite understandably I think. We grow up often with the idea of some old fellow with a white beard waiting to punish us for the slightest thing, so we get the wrong idea, just go with the picture that God is love and wants the best for us all, and asking for his direction during each day gets us out of our minds, and helps us keep calm and on the right track.

Thanks, believing that God planned evolution is something I believe that would be acceptable to my mind.

If the word God causes such an issue in AA, why is it used so many times in the BB? (337 matches, when I did a search on my Kindle version of the book.) Why not just stick to honesty from the beginning? The AA program is all about God. If it wasn't, a simple find and replace should have been done to the BB.

[Theo50]

Unfortunately this will require me to completely abandon any other beliefs in science and evolution as it will only keep my mind at odds.

[/quote]

How so?

I am hoping you are right and I can work through having both exist the same time in my mind.

How can anyone believe that in the entire universe there is not a medical cure for alcoholism?

If there is, what does it prove?

It doesn't prove anything but allows me to think that there is a possibility that a cure exists, but just isn't available yet.

In that is the case, my HP could just as easily take me back to insanity for any reason that I cannot comprehend.

IF this is true, what then?

Just trying to gain some honest insight. If I want to truly be open to giving my will over to God, I cannot expect to understand God.

[avaneesh912]

If you have difficulty with the God concept, you could simply see the process working in others. I believe thats what the atheist and agnostics do. I believe this worked for me too. I definitely came into AA as an agnostic. All I did was, I kind of vaguely understood the process and I was so desperate, I started working on finding the resentments, fear and relationship issues that is keeping me from taking conscious decisions. And further along as I went through the reminder of the steps, I got a lot more clarity. You will experience the change yourself. You will act different once you tap into the resource the book talks about. I would suggest you listen to some of the God topics that bring up with Tyson Neil Degresse. He talks about even scientist in those days when they couldn't solve certain formula, they attributed it to something mystical. And Tyson talks about how some of them have been accounted for now. Thats how you will feel when you go through the process.

[Brock]

How can anyone believe that in the entire universe there is not a medical cure for alcoholism?

I feel that many probably ask this question when they are new, and I did myself, then I actually saw a TV report that seemed to offer a ‘cure,’ haven’t heard why it’s not available maybe the trials showed some bad side effects. Earlier this month I spoke in another topic about that, I said -

Early on I went to a meeting and said that I had seen on TV someone talking of a new pill, which promised people like us could drink and enjoy without overdoing it. About half the room laughed, the other half like me looked on in shock, why are they laughing, when we might have a way out of this no drinking for life sentence we wondered.

One of the older ones who was laughing, said I should come back and let them know, when they invent a pill which not only controlled how much we drank, but also made them more serene and happier than they had ever been before.

Of course this is something I understand now, a cure for alcoholism could hardly also contain a cure for what had me drinking in the first place, so I would still be the unhappy person I was before.

A couple of us here write about our spiritual practice including contemplative prayer, and a study of how to live in the present, it’s like half way meditating while going about life. Alcohol and similar drugs deaden our minds (thoughts), so we feel more comfortable because our thoughts about life problems and fears are reduced, our minds are pushed below such irritating thoughts. In the practice of living in the present however, our minds are elevated above such thoughts, we can be absolutely alert, yet feel the peace most only experience while meditating.

There is a saying I have seen around AA something like ‘they call it present because it’s a gift,’ and yet someone wrote this a few days ago -

Paradoxically while not drinking "One Day at a Time" is great practice for living "One Day at a Time," living in the present is a terrible way to stay away from that first drink.

Since a newcomer to AA, would hardly have developed spiritually enough to live in the present, and since only newcomers should be concerned about staying away from the first drink, then even if this theory were true, it would not apply. By the time we get spiritually fit enough to live in the present, staying away from the first drink would be an idea we dropped long ago, as the book says - “We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us.”

[Theo50]

If you have difficulty with the God concept, you could simply see the process working in others. I believe thats what the atheist and agnostics do. I believe this worked for me too. I definitely came into AA as an agnostic. All I did was, I kind of vaguely understood the process and I was so desperate, I started working on finding the resentments, fear and relationship issues that is keeping me from taking conscious decisions. And further along as I went through the reminder of the steps, I got a lot more clarity. You will experience the change yourself. You will act different once you tap into the resource the book talks about. I would suggest you listen to some of the God topics that bring up with Tyson Neil Degresse. He talks about even scientist in those days when they couldn't solve certain formula, they attributed it to something mystical. And Tyson talks about how some of them have been accounted for now. Thats how you will feel when you go through the process.

Thanks avaneesh912, I will look into finding that audio.
Thanks,
Theo

[Theo50]

How can anyone believe that in the entire universe there is not a medical cure for alcoholism?

I feel that many probably ask this question when they are new, and I did myself, then I actually saw a TV report that seemed to offer a ‘cure,’ haven’t heard why it’s not available maybe the trials showed some bad side effects. Earlier this month I spoke in another topic about that, I said -

Early on I went to a meeting and said that I had seen on TV someone talking of a new pill, which promised people like us could drink and enjoy without overdoing it. About half the room laughed, the other half like me looked on in shock, why are they laughing, when we might have a way out of this no drinking for life sentence we wondered.

One of the older ones who was laughing, said I should come back and let them know, when they invent a pill which not only controlled how much we drank, but also made them more serene and happier than they had ever been before.

Of course this is something I understand now, a cure for alcoholism could hardly also contain a cure for what had me drinking in the first place, so I would still be the unhappy person I was before.

A couple of us here write about our spiritual practice including contemplative prayer, and a study of how to live in the present, it’s like half way meditating while going about life. Alcohol and similar drugs deaden our minds (thoughts), so we feel more comfortable because our thoughts about life problems and fears are reduced, our minds are pushed below such irritating thoughts. In the practice of living in the present however, our minds are elevated above such thoughts, we can be absolutely alert, yet feel the peace most only experience while meditating.

There is a saying I have seen around AA something like ‘they call it present because it’s a gift,’ and yet someone wrote this a few days ago -

Paradoxically while not drinking "One Day at a Time" is great practice for living "One Day at a Time," living in the present is a terrible way to stay away from that first drink.

Since a newcomer to AA, would hardly have developed spiritually enough to live in the present, and since only newcomers should be concerned about staying away from the first drink, then even if this theory were true, it would not apply. By the time we get spiritually fit enough to live in the present, staying away from the first drink would be an idea we dropped long ago, as the book says - “We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us.”

You are correct, I shouldn't have said a cure for alcoholism, but a cure for the body allergy, so that we could drink like non-alcoholics.

If one picks up a drink after decades of sobriety is it because they are no longer spiritually fit? I am hoping that staying away from that first drink will become non existing for me some day.