We have a 3 fold disease.

New to AA? Got questions? Here's the place to ask. Note that no one person speaks "officially" for AA. AA meetings in your local area are always the best source of information. Note that anyone may post and reply to messages in this forum.
User avatar
Brock
Forums Old Timer
Posts: 4175
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:45 pm

Re: We have a 3 fold disease.

Post by Brock »

Jamesrichardson wrote:This is incorrect, we have a 2 fold illness. The spiritual disease stems from resentment & not from alcoholism. The spiritual malady is a human condition & not specific to the alcoholic. It even states this in your own Big Book, but you will be to blind or ignorant to accept this information.
Welcome to e-AA James, it’s a pity your first post is accusing another member of being blind or ignorant, I think we would be better off if you pointed to the area in the book which supports your two fold definition.

Maybe in my old age I am going a little blind, but I am not ignorant, and I read this in the chapter ‘How It Works,’ (I have highlighted a few words) -
Resentment is the "number one" offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all forms of spiritual disease, for we have been not only mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick. When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically.
The way I read that we certainly start off three fold – spiritual, mental & physical, when the spiritual is overcome we “straighten out mentally and physically.” Still three things!
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."

User avatar
PaigeB
Trusted Servant
Posts: 8775
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:28 pm
Location: Iowa USA

Re: We have a 3 fold disease.

Post by PaigeB »

That is how I see it too Brock, but I do wish that Jamesrichardson (hope that's not your real name anonymity & all) would discuss his views with the specific back up he has from the Big Book or other conference approved literature. I am always interested in spirituality & humanism.
Cling to the thought that, in God's hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have - the key to life and happiness for others. With it you can avert death and misery for them. page 124 BB

tomsteve
Forums Long Timer
Posts: 568
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:25 am

Re: We have a 3 fold disease.

Post by tomsteve »

Jamesrichardson wrote:This is incorrect, we have a 2 fold illness. The spiritual disease stems from resentment & not from alcoholism. The spiritual malady is a human condition & not specific to the alcoholic. It even states this in your own Big Book, but you will be to blind or ignorant to accept this information.

disease and malady mean the same thing.
so apparently a one fold illness?

User avatar
Roberth
Forums Long Timer
Posts: 702
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:53 pm
Location: In The High Desert of California
Contact:

Re: We have a 3 fold disease.

Post by Roberth »

Hello James My name is Robert and I am a Los Angeles area alcoholic. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But I did notice you said “It even states this in your own Big Book.” Makes me wonder if you have had a bad experience with AA.
AS for myself I didn’t and still don’t believe every word in the big book. I tried not to run around quoting it likes it was, but through trial and error I have found out that many things in the book are true in similar ways.
My alcoholic actions did corrupted my thinking and I was nowhere close to being n a spiritual path. Whether that is a spiritual disease or just being a butthead makes little different to me. What does make a difference to me it that I no longing had to drink and I am becoming a better person by doing the things the big book suggests.
Call it what you want but it doesn’t change my life experiences and that is all should be sharing anyways.
Robert
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in pretty, well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming WOW What a ride!!!!

User avatar
Blue Moon
Forums Old Timer
Posts: 3676
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:01 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: We have a 3 fold disease.

Post by Blue Moon »

PaigeB wrote:That is how I see it too Brock, but I do wish that Jamesrichardson (hope that's not your real name anonymity & all) would discuss his views with the specific back up he has from the Big Book or other conference approved literature. I am always interested in spirituality & humanism.
It's all semantics. I've yet to see someone walk into AA who wasn't suffering from spiritual sickness. At that stage, who cares which symptom is cause or effect? "Hey, I'm unable to breathe as my lungs are full of smoke due to my pants being on fire". It's just not worth debating with them whether their lung problem was either causing or resulted from something else, what's required either way is Action.

In all this verbal masturbation, the only point really worth making is being overlooked: the problem is not alcohol. That is the only information the newcomer really needs to know; that if the problem is alcohol, they'd have fixed it already.
Ian S
AKA Blue Moon

TroyChristopher
Forums Newcomer
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:32 pm

Re: We have a 3 fold disease.

Post by TroyChristopher »

In the personal story, It Might Have Been Worse in the Big Book on page 355, it is explained as a two-fold. "The explanation of alcoholism was a disease of a two-fold nature, an allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind."

User avatar
Brock
Forums Old Timer
Posts: 4175
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:45 pm

Re: We have a 3 fold disease.

Post by Brock »

Welcome here Troy. The old thread you revived bought back a few memories, I read page 355, and yes the fellow says that’s how it was explained to him, two fold. But as I wrote here before at the top of this page, surely the Big Book chapter on ‘How it Works,’ trumps anything that someone writes in a personal story, here it is again with highlights added -
Resentment is the "number one" offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all forms of spiritual disease, for we have been not only mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick. When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically.
The way I read that we certainly start off three fold – spiritual, mental & physical, when the spiritual is overcome we “straighten out mentally and physically,” - three things!
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."

TroyChristopher
Forums Newcomer
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:32 pm

Re: We have a 3 fold disease.

Post by TroyChristopher »

Honesty sit with your self and ask why would the A.A. Big Book have a personal story explaining it very clearly and elequently as a two fold disease if it was not??? That would be like saying I do not practice acceptance or "The Acceptance Prayer" as it is known to some, because it is a personal story. Spirituality aka God as you understand him is the solution or recovery. Anyone can be spiritually sick (an alcoholic or non alcoholic) but not everyone has the allergy (physical) and obsession (mental) to make them an alcoholic. Hence two fold. It is stated throughout the Big Book mental and physical or mind and body, nothing about spirituality. Go to page 44 first paragraph, "In the proceeding chapters you have learned something about alcoholism. We hope we have made clear the distinction between the alcoholic and the non alcoholic. If, when you honesty want to, you find you cannot quit entirely (the mental), or if when drinking, you have little or no control over the amount you take (the physical), you are probably an alcoholic. In that case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer."
Your example on page 64...
Resentment is the "number one" offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all forms of spiritual disease, for we have been not only mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick. When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically.
The sentence actually says, "From it stems all forms of spiritual disease, for we have not only been mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick." But they are not talking about alcoholism. It says "From it", from what??? The prior two sentences clearly answer that " Resentment is the "number one" offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else." From what?? Resentments, not alcoholism.
Again, every alcoholic may be spiritually sick but not every spiritually sick person is an alcoholic.
On page 92 in the Big Book, where it's teaching us to work with new people the last paragraph tells us, "Continue to speak of alcoholism as an illness, a fatal malady. Talk about the conditions of body and mind which accompany it." BODY and MIND...two fold! "When we straighten out spiritually we straighten out mentally and physically." What the book is saying is that the recovery is spiritual, the recovery, not the problem. Bill used a varience of words in ways not to repeat, for instance "malady" which can mean disease but also sickness. If we want to get super technical the route origin of the word comes from French word "malade" which means sick. It various AA pamphlets the question is asked "what is alcoholism?" the pamphlets always mention mental and physical, it never mentions the spiritual part of the disease. If it was a three fold do you not think that would be clearly stated and not a mystery at this point??? We study the Big Book and 12 and 12. All the answers are in there, even in the personal stories, which it is solitified as a two fold disease on page 355 once again (why do you think that is in there??). Thanks that is all from me today, ODAAT.

User avatar
avaneesh912
Forums Old Timer
Posts: 5313
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 12:22 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: We have a 3 fold disease.

Post by avaneesh912 »

"Continue to speak of alcoholism as an illness, a fatal malady.
What works for me is If i dont take care of the fatal malady which could constitute Resentments, Relationship issues, fear and other forms of discontedness will lead to those strange blank spots like Fred the accountant experiences and boom, I take a drink and then the craving kicks in.
Show him the mental twist which leads to the first drink of a spree. We suggest you do this as we have done it in the chapter on alcoholism.(Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)

User avatar
Spirit Flower
Forums Old Timer
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:49 am
Location: Texas

Re: We have a 3 fold disease.

Post by Spirit Flower »

an allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind
I think this comes from the doctor's opinion
...a score card reading zero...

D'oh
Forums Old Timer
Posts: 1010
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:51 am

Re: We have a 3 fold disease.

Post by D'oh »

." From what?? Resentments, not alcoholism.
Again, every alcoholic may be spiritually sick but not every spiritually sick person is an alcoholic.
Yes. "Alcohol is but a Symptom". It truly is the "ISM".

Jokingly I like to say that "I didn't drink the first day of Kindergarten, but I sure could have used one." Much like so many "Alcoholics" can vididly recall their "First Drink" and the effect it had.

I even recall 1 Grapevine story, that the writer explained many of the "Promises" coming from their first Drink, until it Stopped working, and trouble set in. So with that being said, Many people can suffer from the "ISM" without ever taking a drink. I can witness people almost everyday, suffering from the same Resentments, Fears, Self Centeredness, that I had ran to Booze to try to deal with.

The Physical part of the illness, can come. I felt it the second round. Where Booze became Medicine, to stop Shakes, Sweats, Insomnia, and so on.

But the Spiritual Illness, was the Main root. Self Centeredness, Resentment, Fear. In that order, Self Centeredness coming before Resentment, causing most Resentments. The only Double "Must" in the Big Book.
page 61
Selfishness—self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.

So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn’t think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible.[/quote]

User avatar
PaigeB
Trusted Servant
Posts: 8775
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:28 pm
Location: Iowa USA

Re: We have a 3 fold disease.

Post by PaigeB »

TroyChristopher wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:43 pm
In the personal story, It Might Have Been Worse in the Big Book on page 355, it is explained as a two-fold. "The explanation of alcoholism was a disease of a two-fold nature, an allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind."
... Honesty sit with your self and ask why would the A.A. Big Book have a personal story explaining it very clearly and elequently as a two fold disease if it was not???
personal story ~ All of our stories are different and we relate differently to the disease. Some even say there is a 4th fold here which is the emotional nature.

I identify "My name is Paige and I am an alcoholic" - now I know that you know me. Everything else is my personal experience & understanding. AND the same goes for Bill and Bob and the first number of alcoholics that wrote the Big Book and added the Stories. Of the years and Editions of the Book different stories have been moved out & added in.

I am an alcoholic and I need a solution. Even though I have 10+ years now, I stay close to the Solution. I "take want I need and, with a breath of kindness, blow the rest away." from a poem I can't recall right now. But I can tell you this from my personal experience last week: I am sponsoring a gal and we just went through We Agnostics. I am an atheist and she is not. My new sponsor (that I got 3 years ago) is almost a nun and I have sponsored a nun too! Anyway! Going through Agnostics again this week was like reading for the first time! Just a few pages - but I literally had to grab a different colored highlighter and mark up my book anew! It was revelation and my sponsee was amused by my giddy joy.

I have related to the Chapter to the Agnostics differently over the years as my understanding ~ and my un-understanding ~ of my HP has grown and changed. I still can only take in what I can take in and my experience will always be different than that of others. But we need each and every word of it.
Cling to the thought that, in God's hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have - the key to life and happiness for others. With it you can avert death and misery for them. page 124 BB

Post Reply