When is a person recovered or cured?

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Tosh
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by Tosh »

ezdzit247 wrote:
I've been hearing the rumor that "the success rate for AA is only 5%" for decades but I've never seen any research documents that support that statement.
I believe this came from an A.A. survey which asked quite a few questions, and these two were included:

1. What is the date of your first meeting.
2. What is the date of your last drink.

And because only 5% of A.A. members stopped drinking prior to, or at the date of their first meeting, the treatment INDUSTRY used this figure as a way of showing A.A. doesn't work (so come to us and spend your money).

I mean who stops drinking prior to, or on the day of their first meeting?

For most of us it seems A.A. takes a while to catch up with us. :lol:
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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leejosepho
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by leejosepho »

Tosh wrote:
leejosepho wrote:It has only to do with understanding alcoholism as a two-fold condition with only the second part being treatable only by our Creator.
... Chapter 7 talks about 'when all else fails' and suggests intensive work with another alcoholic.
Not as some kind of separate or different program or as some kind of situation management. Chapter Seven is Step Twelve.
Tosh wrote:...we don't need to have a good intellectual understanding of what you've just posted, but if we put the effort in and take the actions, we would still recover.

Even atheists who don't believe in a 'Creator' would recover just by taking the actions; Bill W said that.
Not giving credit to our Creator does not change the source of the healing. And interestingly, I even know a Rabbi who says she does not care whether people believe God exists as long as they are living within His will!
Tosh wrote:...if original A.A. (as you put it) had better recovery rates than today, it's because they put more effort in; they had a message to carry and they were active in carrying it.
I had not meant to get into comparing track records, just trying to help answer as to why today's AA does not measure up...and that is because essentially telling the real alcoholic he or she actually can stop drinking without turning to our Creator -- "Just don't take the first drink, one-day-at-a-time, while coming to meetings for human 'support'" -- almost never works.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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Tosh
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

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leejosepho wrote: Not giving credit to our Creator does not change the source of the healing. And interestingly, I even know a Rabbi who says she does not care whether people believe God exists as long as they are living within His will!
So we don't have to 'understand' was my point, from here:
leejosepho wrote:It has only to do with understanding alcoholism as a two-fold condition with only the second part being treatable only by our Creator.
I inferred, rightly or wrongly from your post, that as part of recovery we had to understand that it's treatable only by "our Creator", and I was just pointing out we don't even have to believe in a 'Creator', never mind understand that recovery comes from one.

Which you seem to agree with.
leejosepho wrote: I had not meant to get into comparing track records, just trying to help answer as to why today's AA does not measure up...and that is because essentially telling the real alcoholic he or she actually can stop drinking without turning to our Creator -- "Just don't take the first drink, one-day-at-a-time, while coming to meetings for human 'support'" -- almost never works.
I'm not sure saying 'Turn to our Creator' works either. If it did, I'd say it, but phrases like that carry a lot of baggage and they can be early deal-breakers, like we're some evangelical religious organisation.

I also doubt there was some 'Golden Age of A.A.' where everyone sang from the same hymn sheet. I've listened to a lot of old speaker tapes (you can even find them by decade) from the 1950s and some of them would be classed as abysmal by members of this forum; even from some of the 'First 100'.

"Don't drink a day at a time" isn't a modern A.A. phenomenon; that came from early A.A.s.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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PaigeB
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by PaigeB »

Time to wrap this one up. Closing thoughts for a closing thread please!
Cling to the thought that, in God's hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have - the key to life and happiness for others. With it you can avert death and misery for them. page 124 BB

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leejosepho
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by leejosepho »

Tosh wrote:...I was just pointing out we don't even have to believe in a 'Creator', never mind understand that recovery comes from one.
Maybe both of us are trying to be too simplistic here. Belief in self and/or in any kind of human power must be abandoned at Step One, and then the early A.A.s share their conclusion that their recoveries came from our Maker. People who do not believe there is one need only to take the Steps and His handiwork will reveal Him, and believing others believed was enough to get me started.
Tosh wrote:"Don't drink a day at a time" isn't a modern A.A. phenomenon...
...and I had not suggested it was. In fact, I suspect it would be quite safe to believe many things that do not work actually predate all of A.A. completely.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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Tosh
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by Tosh »

leejosepho wrote:and then the early A.A.s share their conclusion that their recoveries came from our Maker.
Some early A.A.s may have, but not all. Jimmy Burwell - who had a hand in writing the Big Book definitely didn't. He died sober too, unlike many others who may have credited their temporary recoveries to 'our Maker'.

Which just goes to show that it's not that important.

Personally, I credit everything; my genetic inheritance and all of my experiences. I'm not special, I'm just lucky. Many others - even those who believe in God - aren't as lucky. They're not at fault; they were created that way. I sometimes wonder why God creates people to fail, but I guess that's a subject for another discussion.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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ann2
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by ann2 »

Just wanted to post to check out my new avatar.

"I sometimes wonder why God creates people to fail" . . . I think there's still the free will issue here. There's no judgement on the person who fails a million times and gets it in the end. Lost sheep, prodigal son, etc. So let's just keep passing on the message and not worry about the person getting it or not -- that's an inside job.

Ann
"If I don't take twenty walks, Billy Beane send me to Mexico" -- Miguel Tejada

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Tosh
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by Tosh »

ann2 wrote:I think there's still the free will issue here. There's no judgement on the person who fails a million times and gets it in the end.
I don't think there's any judgement on those who fail and die either. Many of my family fall into this category; I've lived with their struggles. My father was a tough man - an old breed - and he could go for extraordinary long periods without drinking, but he'd fail and when he did, the wheels used to come off big time. He was very successful from a material wealth point of view, but by the time he died at age 54, he lived in filth and poverty.

I don't believe in freewill; that's not to say we have no will; but from my own experiences, it's definitely not free. If it were I would've stopped drinking long before I arrived at A.A..

The will appears to be conditional; relying on causes and conditions (God?). I cannot just choose - using my freewill - to be a certain way and be that way. I cannot just choose - using freewill - to believe a belief; stuff like this can be faked, but it can't be forced by sheer (free) will. We don't have freewill; that's why we have character defects that can cause us (and others) problems. But isn't this where God comes in?

And the Big Book says ''They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way". Now why should our Creator create people who are destined to fail (indicated by the way they were born)? It's a perfectly valid question aimed at those who seem to know the Absolute Truth.

Nice avatar, btw. :D
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

Stepchild
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by Stepchild »

I have a final thought or two....

I know you like to debate things to no end Tosh...But it really tends to complicate a simple program. And gives me a headache.

Final thought on the topic...

Those who do not recover....Prefer to continue recovering.

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Tosh
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by Tosh »

Stepchild wrote: I know you like to debate things to no end Tosh...But it really tends to complicate a simple program. And gives me a headache.
Stepchild, the program works in practise, mate, but does it work in theory? :lol:

Sorry about your headache.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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PaigeB
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by PaigeB »

End of the line for this thread! Feel free to start a new topic!
Cling to the thought that, in God's hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have - the key to life and happiness for others. With it you can avert death and misery for them. page 124 BB

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