When is a person recovered or cured?

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Stepchild
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by Stepchild » Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:44 am

Brock wrote: if after very many years in AA I still thought like that, I would conclude that this program does not work for me.
Or it was never needed to begin with. When I hear someone telling people just don't drink today no matter what has worked for me for umpteen years....And I know in my heart for someone like me this is impossible.....I have to wonder why they are there.

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clouds
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by clouds » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:53 am

I see a difference in the words 'cured' and 'recovered', which was in the OP's original question.

When I say "my name is clouds and I'm an alcoholic." I'm saying a fact about myself thats true today, yesterday and tomarrow. Thats why I'm still here on e-AA! :)
" Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house." page 98 A.A.

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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by avaneesh912 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:53 am

Or it was never needed to begin with. When I hear someone telling people just don't drink today no matter what has worked for me for umpteen years....And I know in my heart for someone like me this is impossible.....I have to wonder why they are there.
There are so many who don't understand "Queer mental twist" that precedes the drink. They just focus on the powerlessness after the 1st drink. As simple as that.
Show him the mental twist which leads to the first drink of a spree. We suggest you do this as we have done it in the chapter on alcoholism.(Alcoholics Anonymous, Page 92)

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Brock
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by Brock » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:03 am

I see a difference in the words 'cured' and 'recovered', which was in the OP's original question.
I think a few of us have told the OP that the word 'cured' has no business in AA discussion, my own contribution to that was this.
The only times I see the word 'cured,' is when they say in the family afterward that a person is being cured of his more serious ailments, otherwise it's used in such areas as “We are not cured of alcoholism...”, so this they are pretty clear about.
"Good morning, this is your Higher Power speaking. I will not be needing your help today."

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clouds
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by clouds » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:23 am

Thanks! :)
" Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house." page 98 A.A.

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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by Larryp713 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:54 am

This is such an important concept for me. I had a spiritual experience very early in my first real attempt to get sober using the twelve steps as outlined in Alcoholics Anonymous. The obsession to drink was completely removed. I still had and have thoughts, but there is no desire. I just don't want to drink. If I could only impress to all who read this what a miracle that alone was.

So I consider myself recovered. I am no longer dominated by active alcoholism. But I know I am not cured. That is also a gift. Working the steps really opened my eyes to the nature of my disease and the definition of powerlessness. Very early in my life, I developed an association with alcohol and feeling good. That is as deep in my psyche as any other concept, and it is why all the will power in the world would not prevent me from returning to drinking once the pain of the last consequences had subsided. I will always have that association deep inside me and will thus never be cured.

What AA and these steps provided me was another association that will make me feel good. It is the design for living which has me rely on a greater power and being of service to my fellow man. Specifically, when I am working with another alcoholic I always feel good. I have come to believe that carrying this message to others who are still suffering is a very important part of God's plan for me. As long as I feed this association, the older and deeper-seated association holds no power over me.

I don't know if that makes sense, but it really helped me connect the dots on how this actually worked for me. Thank you for the topic! Larry
Trudging the Road of Happy Destiny!!!

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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by ezdzit247 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:15 pm

positrac wrote:In my simple mind this is a no debate topic as I have been relieved of my desire to drink right now and for today only. I am reminded that my character defects are alive and well as alcohol is a mere symptom of this disease I have. I will be cured the day I am put in the pine box and cooked in the fire.

I believe time, sobriety and quality of sobriety removes unnecessary thoughts and for me I have enough to be concerned with out mind screwing the cured and or what if theory.

What I can say is if I don't drink and or drug then I can be assured I won't be tempted and that is one disease unlike others I can handle as the ball is in my court. Cancer for example is one that may be in some kind of remission in the cells of the body and could eventually come back to haunt.
I like that word "remission". It works. It doesn't infer or imply "cured", it bypasses the whole "recovered" vs "recovering" debate thing, and plugs in nicely to Bill's concept of a daily reprieve based on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. What does remission feel like? Like Tosh says, "flipping fabulous" !!!...... :lol:

Thanks, positrac!
“To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children...to leave the world a better place...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded.” -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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ezdzit247
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by ezdzit247 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:50 pm

Tosh wrote:
ezdzit247 wrote:
Tosh wrote:I feel flipping fabulous; I'm waking up feeling refreshed, I'm running, I regularly attend running races, I'm doing Insanity workouts; I've recently started doing yoga regularly. I'm eating healthier (I like chocolate too much).

I'm not prone to fits of temper, I feel like I'm on an even keel; not euphoric, not depressed; I can sit and read a book comfortably, I can sit in the quiet, I can watch a film from start to finish and I'm not fighting with Mrs Tosh (apart from the occasional spat - the last one I can't remember). I'm even okay in traffic. :lol:

I feel recovered.
Congratulations..... :D
Thank you. But just to clarify, this doesn't mean I'm never restless, irritable or discontented. I can and do still regularly experience anxiety and all the other negative mental afflictions suffered by humans.

But this is NORMAL; non-alcoholics suffer with it too; it's called the Human Condition. Mother Nature created us this way; evolution by natural selection does not favour chilled animals who just laze around all day; She wants us restless, irritable, discontented and feeling anxious; it makes us look for food, sex, better caves; it keeps us alert so we don't get eaten by tigers.

Yeh, the software in our heads is out-of-date. The 12 Steps helps with an upgrade.

Carl Jung once said:
Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you.
Which indicates being insane is the norm.

I also like what Ernie K said (paraphrased):
I still have that hole in my soul that the wind blows through, only today it's smaller and more comfortable to live with.
My point is that we're not 'poor little sick things' when we're recovered. I think the attitude that "I'm just going to have to be sick for the rest of my life" is a kind of false humility. We don't.
I get it, Tosh. I know what you mean. When I read your response I had a moment of clarity when I realized we were dialoguing but not communicating. Your concept of recovered was subjective (feeling, sensory based) and mine was non-subjective. Apples and oranges.

I've never thought of "recovering" as meaning being sick for the rest of my life but thanks for sharing that's what you hear when AAer's say that. For me it just means I'll never be cured of this disease. I liked what positrac posted. "I'm in remission." Does that phrase imply false humility to you?

I like your quotes. I really like this one too...."I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane." -- Waylon Jennings. Crazy is fun. Insane...not so much.
“To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children...to leave the world a better place...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded.” -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Tosh
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by Tosh » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:06 pm

ezdzit247 wrote: I get it, Tosh. I know what you mean. When I read your response I had a moment of clarity when I realized we were dialoguing but not communicating. Your concept of recovered was subjective (feeling, sensory based) and mine was non-subjective. Apples and oranges.
Apologies, I should've been clearer about what connotations (I think) the word 'recovering' has.

To me it has connotations of an alkie who is on the knife-edge of staying sober or drinking; the kind of perception a non alcoholic may have of an alcoholic who is struggling to stay sober on white knuckles.

I remember at my first ever A.A. meeting the chairman introduced himself to the group as a 'recovering alcoholic' and I remember thinking "Strange? You look pretty healthy to me!"

I think the word 'recovered' is just more positive than 'recovering'. It's also in our literature. I mean you know me, I'm no fan of dogmatic beliefs; I will never say "It's in the Big Book so it's true" :lol: , but I do agree with the dogmatic types here; recovered is just more positive.

And we can recover; I know folk in A.A. who are better than well; they're more happy, kinder, peaceful and well adjusted human beings than non-alcoholic 'normies' I know. Some folk get sober and absolutely THRIVE in A.A..

Another phrase I dislike is the 'powerless over people, places and things'. :lol:

I'm not powerless over anything, even external situations I can't change, IF I can adjust myself to it.
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by BPG » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:43 pm

Tosh wrote:I've never thought of "recovering" as meaning being sick for the rest of my life but thanks for sharing that's what you hear when AAer's say that. For me it just means I'll never be cured of this disease. I liked what positrac posted. "I'm in remission." Does that phrase imply false humility to you?
I agree with this. I prefer 'recovering' because (to my ear) it implies on-going personal growth. To me, 'recovered' always sounds a little smug. But that's just my opinion; none of it really matters much, since communicating our personal truth requires a lot of context anyway. (They'll discover my false humility soon enough, even if I say 'recovered!) :)

A good friend of mine always introduces himself as '... a recovering, discovering alcoholic.' Kind of a nice signature.

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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by Lali » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:51 pm

I like "I'm an alcoholic who is active in recovery".
Step 1: I can't
Step 2: He can
Step 3: I think I'll let him

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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by Stepchild » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:16 pm

So let's say I'm new to AA....I'm reading the book and they talk about how they have recovered from the title page on. And you are carrying this message to me. You talk about how you are in remission...Which I can't find anywhere in the book...Or you are still recovering....Which kind of makes me feel like you haven't finished yet. Maybe I should find somebody else. And then I come across this one line that doesn't jive with what you are telling me. You are confusing me. For anyone of you that feel you haven't recovered...Please explain it to me....

Almost none of us liked the self-searching, the leveling of our pride, the confession of shortcomings which the process requires for its successful consummation.
pg 25

What is the successful consummation? What do they mean by that?

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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by leejosepho » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:12 am

ChancesAh wrote:Hi,
It appears there are a multitude of 'ideas', opinions and 'claims' but is there any proven scientific answer for the question,

Does a person recover in AA or are they always recovering.

...

...thousands of 1st months coins going out but only a few dozen 10 year coins. Surely such a massive percentage must be a reflection on the program and not the individual. So it's analyse to learn, grow and survive to live a productive life. Not so simple at all really
Solid answers here are definitely available, and my own search for them began in 1981. I knew nothing at all about alcoholism or A.A. at that time, but I knew these two things about myself:

a) I was completely unable to control my drinking while drinking;
b) I was just as powerless to stay sober after I had again stopped.

Today, however, and now following my last drink ever on 10/22/82, this is an absolute certainty:

"Seemingly he could not drink even if he would. God had restored his sanity." ("Alcoholics Anonymous", page 57)

Today I would still be as completely unable to control my drinking as ever while drinking, and there is nothing that can be done about that physical aspect of my alcoholism. Hence, I am not "cured" of alcoholism even though I have permanently recovered from the mental/emotional aspect of chronic alcoholism by taking the Steps to have my "no effective mental defense against the first drink" completely removed...and I did not get there by using dubious gimmicks such as found in the book "Living Sober".

Is there any scientific proof of my actual-and-permanent recovery? No, none at all...and that is because there is no scientific proof of the existence of our Creator who has provided it.

Why today are there so many 30/60/90-days chips and so few 10-year coins? Because today's AA almost never tells the real alcoholic the entire story of the original A.A.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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Tosh
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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by Tosh » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:18 am

leejosepho wrote:Because today's AA almost never tells the real alcoholic the entire story of the original A.A.
I think that's a gross oversimplification.

I mean not all of the 'First 100' stayed sober either according to A.A. historians who've researched this. Even Ebby T, from memory, struggled on and off and only got about two years sobriety in at the end of his life (without A.A.), and Bill credits Ebby for carrying the message to him.

And if you listen to some old shares (I've listened to many), you'll hear all the stuff in them that people get upset about today (Don't drink a day-at-a-time, etc).
Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.” Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts)

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Re: When is a person recovered or cured?

Post by leejosepho » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:30 am

Tosh wrote:
leejosepho wrote:Because today's AA almost never tells the real alcoholic the entire story of the original A.A.
I think that's a gross oversimplification.
Yes, that is certainly neither the entirety of the matter nor a comprehensive explanation of it! But the matter of recovered versus allegedly recovering-ing-ing-ing for a lifetime has nothing to do with who or how many either did or did not stay sober. It has only to do with understanding alcoholism as a two-fold condition with only the second part being treatable only by our Creator.
=======================
"We A.A.s do not *stay* away from drinking [one day at a
time] -- we *grow* away from drinking [one day at a time]."
("Lois Remembers", page 168, quoting Bill, emphasis added)
=======================

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